TONY FRATINI SAID:
BRW [Bonnie Ray Williams] was snacking on his chicken lunch and drinking a soda pop within the SN [Sniper's Nest].
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Dead wrong. Why are you making this stuff up about Bonnie Ray?
TONY FRATINI SAID:
How do you think the assassin got BRW to "vacate" the SN?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
No need for it, because BRW was never INSIDE the SN at any time on 11/22/63. And there's no testimony to that effect from Bonnie Ray Williams at all. So why did you say it?
COLIN CROW SAID:
The consolidated evidence indicates BRW lied and spent time before vacating the SN leaving his chicken sandwich unfinished.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Beautiful. One more "liar" to add to a CTer's list. What a surprise. Everybody's a liar except Lee Harvey.
COLIN CROW SAID:
Who moved the chicken twice, David? If BRW is truthful it goes from the two wheeler to the SN and back to the two wheeler.
BRW did not vacate his position until just a few minutes before the shots. Why not take his uneaten chicken with him?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
I doubt there was ever any chicken bones right
AT or
IN the Sniper's Nest. Or on the SN boxes. The chicken bones and lunch sack and Dr. Pepper bottle were further WEST, where Bonnie Ray Williams said he ate lunch.
I think Luke Mooney was incorrect [as were some other police officers] about the precise location where the bones were found. There's also confusion over the FIFTH or SIXTH floor for the chicken remnants, as Tom Alyea and Gerald Hill discuss in this 1993 video....
TONY FRATINI SAID:
Here we go - now DVP is moving the chicken lunch sack and the chicken bones! We know that [Gerald] Hill stuck his head out of the correct floor with the lunch sack/piece of chicken in his hand. It was Hill who initially moved the evidence from the boxes behind the SN.
[Quoting Jim Ewell's words as they appear in Larry Sneed's book] "No More Silence"....
"Jerry Hill worked his way up to the sixth floor, leaned out an open window, and he had what was thought to be Oswald’s little fried chicken lunch. It was in a little pop box. Jerry was holding that box and holding up one of the chicken bones exclaiming to everybody that listened to him down on the street that the fried chicken was what he had been eating. About that time there was a commotion around one of the squad cars, and we could hear a radio saying that an officer had been shot in Oak Cliff."
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
I'm not "moving" the chicken bones to the fifth floor. Tom Alyea does that in that 1993 video. He's certain there were bones on the fifth floor. And maybe there were. I'm not sure.
But Bonnie Ray certainly never said he left any bones on any boxes....
Mr. BALL. Where did you put the bones?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I don't remember exactly, but I think I put some of them back in the sack. Just as I was ready to go I threw the sack down.
Mr. BALL. What did you do with the sack?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I think I just dropped it there.
Mr. BALL. Anywhere near the two-wheeler?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I think it was.
Also....
From Vince Bugliosi's book....
[Quote On:]
"During a search of the sixth floor after the assassination, a detective for the Crime Scene Search Section of the Dallas Police Department found a lunch bag with chicken bones, a piece of waxed paper, and a little piece of Fritos in it in front of the “third” double-window over from the southeasternmost window on the sixth floor of the Book Depository Building. He also found a Dr. Pepper bottle nearby. (7 H 146, WCT Robert Lee Studebaker; CD 1245, p.84, FBI interview of Robert Studebaker on May 29, 1964)
Since Bonnie Williams had chicken, Fritos, and a Dr. Pepper for lunch at that exact place, that should have been the end of it. Lieutenant J. C. Day dusted the Dr. Pepper bottle for fingerprints, and no prints of Oswald’s were found. When Day later found out the food and drink had belonged to Williams, he decided the lunch bag and Dr. Pepper bottle had no value to the case and threw the sack and bottle away. (CD 1245, p.83)
Not so fast, said conspiracy theorist Sylvia Meagher, who said that since Day “saw no need to check the empty bottle for fingerprints other than Oswald’s, we will never know if fingerprints were on the bottle, or whose they were.” And even though Studebaker, whose job it was to search the sixth floor, saw the food and drink next to the third double-window over, and several other witnesses said they saw them in the same place (e.g., 6 H 330–331, WCT William H. Shelley), and Williams himself said that’s where he ate his lunch, Meagher proceeded to cite other witnesses who said they saw food elsewhere, for example, Luke Mooney (3 H 288–289), who said he saw a piece of chicken on top of the boxes surrounding the sniper’s nest. (Meagher, Accessories after the Fact, pp.39–41)
Other than her and her colleagues’ insatiable passion for pointing out normal (not to them) inconsistencies in the recollections of witnesses, nowhere does Meagher tell her readers what the relevance of these inconsistencies was. Was it her point that Williams was lying, that the chicken eater was the assassin in the sniper’s nest (who wasn’t, Meagher would assure us, Oswald), or Williams was not lying, but the assassin in the sniper’s nest was also eating chicken while he waited to kill the president?
I wish the theorists would tell us the relevance of the many inconsistencies they cite in the Kennedy case instead of feeling that the inconsistencies are an end in themselves and nothing else has to be shown or argued." -- Vincent Bugliosi; Page 23 of Endnotes in "Reclaiming History"
DAVID VON PEIN LATER SAID:
The
physical evidence isn't lying (even though most Internet conspiracy theorists think the evidence against Oswald
is telling one lie after another) --- that evidence is telling us who shot President Kennedy. And it wasn't a black man. It was Lee Harvey Oswald.
And when it comes to
Bonnie Ray Williams' testimony in front of the Warren Commission, I really can't see why he would feel any need to want to start making up stories and telling lies about his exact whereabouts on 11/22/63 --- because it wasn't Bonnie Ray's rifle that was found in the Book Depository. And Bonnie Ray's prints weren't found all over the interior of the Sniper's Nest and on a certain empty brown paper bag in that same Nest.
And Bonnie Ray is certainly cleared as being a GUNMAN in the assassination, because we know he was photographed on the FIFTH FLOOR by Tom Dillard within seconds of the shots being fired at JFK. So Dillard's photo clears Williams in that respect (as an actual participant as a GUNMAN, that is).
And Bonnie Ray also knows that he's got two "alibi" witnesses -- Harold Norman and James Jarman -- who were both with Williams on the fifth floor at the exact time of the assassination. So why does Bonnie Ray Williams NEED to lie---about anything? IMO, he didn't NEED to lie at all. Hence, it's my opinion he did not lie in his testimony.
And even if Bonnie Ray DID leave a chicken bone on top of one of the boxes that surrounded Oswald's Sniper's Nest, I can't really see why that fact is critical when it comes to trying to solve the Kennedy assassination. I mean, even if Bonnie Ray was walking around the sixth floor and had walked right past Oswald's Sniper's Nest (without going INTO the "Nest", which I do not think he did at any time that day), and if Williams had deposited a chicken bone on top of a box near the Nest --- what would that prove?
We already KNOW that Bonnie Ray was up there on the sixth floor eating his lunch fairly near Oswald's sniper's perch at a point in time that was fairly close to the time of the assassination itself. And we know, via the Dillard picture, that Bonnie Ray was not actually
ON THE SIXTH FLOOR at the time of the assassination. He moved down to the fifth floor to join his co-workers Norman and Jarman shortly before shots were fired at the President.
So a leftover chicken bone sitting on top of a box near the assassin's lair is pretty much meaningless in the long run, in my opinion.
I think, once again, that some conspiracy theorists are attempting to make something that is totally insignicant seem vitally important. In this instance, they seem to be creating a six-course chicken dinner out of a single leftover poultry bone.
COLIN CROW SAID:
It is clear you are unaware of the timelines witnesses are describing. This is the simple reason why a black man may not have been observed by Brennan for example. He did not take up position on the wall until about 12:25 or so. By this time, Rowland's attention was elsewhere and the man had likely left.
TONY FRATINI SAID:
I don't care what Vincent [Bugliosi] believes or not - it is
undeniable that Rowland saw BRW [Bonnie Ray Williams] IN the SN and he was present on the same floor as the sniper was. The WC completely discredited the man for
no reason at all.
BRW left evidence IN the SN that he was indeed present. Vincent is merely paying lip service to the WC - anyone can see that, David.
That FACT [regarding
Arnold Rowland saying he saw a black man in the Sniper's Nest prior to 12:15 PM on 11/22/63] is a game changer.
He saw BRW
first and then he saw the sniper
second on the WEST end of the 6th floor at around 12:15 pm. This makes perfect sense because from that position the sniper can see ALL the way down to the SN. The sniper must [have] been wondering who was in the SN.
I believe that both parties knew of each other's presence on the 6th floor. Fear--absolute fear--gripped BRW. He left quick. But he left late, 5 minutes before the arrival of the POTUS. [It] chimes in perfectly with the movements of Norman and Jarman coming back into the TSBD.
What we have in the "official records" in regards to the movement of Norman, Jarman and Williams is nothing
but made-up nonsense.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Here's what I think happened with respect to Arnold Rowland's observation about seeing a "black man" on the 6th floor of the Book Depository....
Rowland did what I believe other witnesses on the ground in Dealey Plaza did that day --- he got his floors mixed up. He saw a black man (Harold Norman) in the FIFTH-floor window, directly underneath the Sniper's Nest window, and Arnold thought that the black man (Norman) was on the SIXTH floor. But Norman, of course, was one floor below the assassin.
And I say all of the above even though Rowland said in his Warren Commission testimony that he ALSO saw
"two Negro women, I think" in the fifth-floor window. But it's fairly clear that Arnold was a bit mixed up there, and his use of the words "I think" would indicate a certain amount of uncertainty on this point, because we know there were not two "women" visible in the fifth-floor windows on November 22nd. Those "two Negro" individuals were, of course, Harold Norman and Bonnie Ray Williams, neither of whom resemble "women" to me (even from a considerable distance).
I also think Amos Euins made the very same mistake when he said in some of his statements that he saw a black man in the sixth-floor assassin's window. Euins, too, simply got the floor number wrong. He also most likely saw Harold Norman looking out of the fifth-floor corner window and later thought Norman was on the SIXTH floor.
Norman, Williams, and Jarman were SO CLOSE to the actual assassin's window (being just one floor below the gunman when Oswald killed the President from the sixth floor) that, in my opinion, it's very understandable how various witnesses could have been confused and rattled when they attempted to re-create in their minds the precise details regarding the floor numbers.
Plus, I'll ask this question:
How does anything uttered by Arnold Rowland change the physical evidence in the case?
In other words, how does Rowland's testimony make Oswald
INNOCENT of shooting John Kennedy?
Please explain that to me.
COLIN CROW SAID:
I find Bugliosi's analysis fatuous and imaginative......as with the previous dismissal of the chicken lunch issue.
As for your suggestion that Rowland saw Norman.....timing again David....they weren't there at the times indicated.....sorry...no cigar.
In fact, a proper analysis of Rowland's WC testimony shows he had an excellent recall of people in the windows that day....much better than that of Brennan. A fact helped no doubt by the longer time frame he was viewing the building and the angle he viewed from compared to Brennan.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Does that mean you think Arnold Rowland DID see
"two Negro women" in the fifth-floor windows?
COLIN CROW SAID:
I would not expect every detail to be 100% correct given the circumstances. Just as I don't discount Brennan's observations simply because he said the man was sitting on the window sill or thought he was standing.
TONY FRATINI SAID:
So now - because Rowland didn't get every minute detail
correct, you're going to do the same thing as the WC and Vincent did?
Rowland's observation of BRW is backed up - now wait for it - by BRW
himself and the leaving of physical evidence by BRW
himself.
Colin and I have the same material that you and Vince have, yet our conclusions are in stark contrast to you. Why is that?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
I guess there are some conspiracists who must believe that Bonnie Ray Williams was lying through his teeth when he said this to the
Warren Commission....
Mr. BALL -- "Where did you eat your lunch?"
Mr. WILLIAMS --
"I ate my lunch--I am not sure about this, but the third or the fourth set of windows, I believe."
Mr. BALL -- "Facing on what street?"
Mr. WILLIAMS -- "Facing Elm Street."
[...]
Mr. DULLES -- "And you were all alone?"
Mr. WILLIAMS -- "Yes, sir."
-----------
So, it's pretty clear from Bonnie Ray's WC testimony quoted above that he did NOT eat his lunch IN THE SNIPER'S NEST on November 22, 1963. And anybody saying he DID eat his lunch in the SN is totally ignoring the BEST witness in this regard---Mr. Bonnie Ray Williams himself.
TONY FRATINI SAID:
If you read [Bonnie Ray Williams'] testimony, you will see that he described
initially being in the SN and that he
moved on his way out to get to the fifth floor.
Mr. WILLIAMS -- "First of all,
I remember there was some boxes behind me. I just kind of leaned back on the boxes first. Then
I began to get a little impatient, because there wasn't anyone coming up. So I decided to move to a two-wheeler."
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Absolute nonsense. Williams wasn't describing being in the Sniper's Nest in that testimony. He was talking about leaning back on some of the boxes that we can easily see are stacked up all around the area where Bonnie Ray's Dr. Pepper bottle and the two-wheeler were located. There are boxes everywhere....
COLIN CROW SAID:
Either he [Bonnie Ray Williams] lied,
Or
The assassin had a chicken lunch too that he didn't finish.....that disappeared entirely under the noses of numerous police officers (maybe they were hungry),
Or
The assassin grabbed BRW's lunch after he left......then someone moved it back to the two wheeler,
Or
Feel free to [provide] another possibility, David.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
I don't think anyone lied. Some people were simply mistaken. Like Edwards and Fischer when they said FIFTH floor in their affidavits when they really meant SIXTH floor.
But the theory I'm hearing in this discussion means you guys need to have Bonnie Ray Williams lying his head off, plus various police officers lying, and the Warren Commission too. It's just plain silly (not to mention totally unnecessary on ANYONE'S behalf)....and surely you know it's silly. But you insist on making mountains out of nothingness anyway. It's in a CTer's blood. You can't help it, I guess.
You guys seem to think the ONLY place where BRW could have possibly leaned back on some boxes on the entire sixth floor was INSIDE the Sniper's Nest itself----even though Williams is clear he was NOT that far EAST on the building's sixth floor when he ate his lunch. But you'll ignore the person who is obviously the best witness to say where he ate lunch----Bonnie Ray himself.
Plus, what makes you think Williams couldn't have MOVED the two-wheeler truck just a little bit (one way or the other)? It was a MOVABLE object, you know. Just as a piece of chicken is MOVABLE.
And a piece of chicken that inexplicably goes from one part of the sixth floor to another (and I cannot explain it; I have no idea why there is the conflicting testimony regarding the chicken bones) is not going to suddenly ERASE the physical evidence of Oswald's guilt. Nor will that piece of chicken (or its bones) erase the known incriminating ACTIONS of one Lee Harvey Oswald on 11/22/63.
Oswald's guilt in both the Kennedy and Tippit murders is rock-solid and will survive the avalanche of speculative nonsense coming from conspiracy theorists about chicken bones and the unsupportable allegations about Bonnie Ray Williams being a liar, etc.
Nobody in this discussion has done anything that diminishes Lee Oswald's guilty status----even if the chicken bones WERE moved around on the sixth floor by somebody (anybody!) on November 22nd.
TONY FRATINI SAID:
BONNIE RAY WILLIAMS -- "Well, at the time I couldn't see too much of the sixth floor, because the books at the time were stacked so high.
I could see only in the path that I was standing--as I remember,
I could not possibly see anything to the east side of the building. But just one aisle,
the aisle I was standing in I could see just about to the west side of the building. So far as seeing to the east and behind me,
I could only see down the aisle behind me and the aisle to the west of me."
Bingo - do you want me to draw you a schematic?
If he was at the two wheeler - he could see all the way to the SN, David.
He couldn't see anything to the EAST because he was
at the
SOUTHEAST corner.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
You actually think a person who is
ALREADY AS FAR EAST AS HE COULD POSSIBLY BE on the sixth floor would say something like this?....
"I could not possibly see anything to the east side of the building."
Hilarious!
The above quote by Bonnie Ray Williams quite obviously indicates that the
one place on the sixth floor where he definitely
WAS NOT located was the Sniper's Nest (i.e., the far southeast corner).
Also....
For Tony....
One of the photos you've been using [
this one] comes from the Secret Service re-enactment film. And I believe that film was produced on November 27th, five days after the assassination.
Therefore, what makes you think the box stacks were EXACTLY the same configuration on Nov. 27 as they were when Bonnie Ray Williams was on the sixth floor on Nov. 22? Couldn't they possibly be in a slightly different location five days later?
In addition, the Secret Service agent in that photo (i.e., still frame) is STANDING UP. He's not sitting down or squatting as LHO probably was doing when Bonnie Ray Williams was on the sixth floor on 11/22. And when the SS agent (John Howlett) sits down, he is completely out of sight of anyone else to the west of his Sniper's Nest position on the sixth floor---as Howlett himself demonstrates in the SS film here (about 11 minutes into the film)....
TONY FRATINI SAID:
You cannot place LHO within the SN, like Colin and I have done with BRW using testimony and physical evidence.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Let me pinch myself to see if I really read the above hunk of pure nonsense....
You're actually implying that LNers like myself have NO PHYSICAL EVIDENCE at all to tie Oswald to the assassination or to the "Sniper's Nest" on the sixth floor of the Book Depository?
(Let me pinch myself yet again, because such a statement is just ludicrous.)
OSWALD'S rifle.
OSWALD'S shells. (From his gun, I mean.)
OSWALD'S bullet fragments IN THE LIMOUSINE.
OSWALD'S prints all over the Nest where we know THE KILLER WAS SHOOTING FROM.
OSWALD'S prints on the paper bag (CE142). Like it or not, CE142 is an official piece of evidence, seen by multiple policemen in the SN, and it is irrevocably tied to Oswald via his 2 prints. Pretend it's a fake, but LNers will keep reminding CTers it exists all the same.
And there's, of course, Howard Brennan, who supplied "witness identification" evidence of Oswald's guilt. I know CTers hate Brennan's Johnny-come-lately positive IDing of LHO, but that's in the record too. So you'll have to deal with it (and toss it aside), much the same way I have to deal with Luke Mooney's account of seeing the chicken bones on a SN box. So, life ain't always easy, is it? For LNers or CTers. :)
But to imply that you have somehow destroyed the case against Oswald (or even PART of that case) by way of the "Chicken Bones" topic and/or BRW's testimony and/or Arnold Rowland's timeline of events is just laughable, Tony.
~~pinch, pinch~~
TONY FRATINI SAID:
The real issue, as I see it Dave, is that you don't actually believe
any response or research from anyone who disputes the findings of the WC. Isn't that correct? You have already prejudged and predetermined people on the basis of their beliefs? So in essence - EVERYONE here who doesn't believe in the WC findings on LHO's guilt on assassinating JFK is
automatically wrong and hence must be a "kook"? Right?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Tony,
After looking at the evidence that hangs Oswald 10 times over (or more), I believe that the "CTers" on almost all Internet forums are not evaluating the evidence properly or fairly---because that evidence DOES prove Lee Oswald's guilt in TWO murders (IMO). Therefore, anyone who says they think Oswald didn't shoot anybody on 11/22/63 is just flat-out wrong. (Again, "IMO".)
Five years ago, another LNer at another forum summed things up very succinctly and accurately when he said:
"There is almost as much evidence that Oswald shot Kennedy as there is evidence that Kennedy got shot." -- Bud; July 21, 2010
David Von Pein
March 2015 [This forum link is no longer available.]
April 2015
March 2016 [This forum link is no longer available.]
================================
RELATED DISCUSSION....
STEPHANIE GOLDBERG SAID:
What about the remains of Bonnie Ray Williams' lunch on the 6th floor that were originally assumed to belong to the assassin? That also puts him on the sixth floor shortly before the shooting.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Hi Stephanie,
Yes, you're right about Bonnie Ray Williams being on the sixth floor shortly before 12:30 that day, but we also
KNOW he could not possibly have been a "shooter"....because we know that Williams was on the
FIFTH floor at the moment of the shooting....and
this photograph proves it:
STEPHANIE GOLDBERG SAID:
Yes, I know that he wasn't the shooter.
If I remember correctly, lunch at the Book Depository was 12 noon to 12:45 pm. And we know the window photo places him on the 5th floor at 12:30. My train of thought here is wondering what he did or didn't say about why he ate his lunch up there and didn't see Oswald or anyone else on the 6th floor setting up a sniper's nest.
And then there's the fact that he left the remains of his lunch up there. Was he a slob? Was he in such a hurry to go downstairs that he couldn't pick up his trash? And was it his usual practice to eat alone on the sixth floor?
Just thinking out loud since we're talking about placing people on the sixth floor.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Why not just read
Bonnie Ray Williams' Warren Commission testimony and find out?
(My favorite part of Bonnie Ray's testimony has always been the
"chicken-on-the-bone sandwich" that he had for lunch on 11/22. Mmm! Sounds delicious! A dentist's delight!) 😀
STEPHANIE GOLDBERG SAID:
Thank you for the link. I did read the testimony. I'm not sure that it answered all of my questions, but the Warren Commission testimony always makes for interesting reading.
TONY KROME SAID:
Where do you place Oswald as Williams munches on his chicken bone sandwich?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
In the Sniper's Nest, trying to keep as quiet (and as low) as he can while Williams is there on the same sixth floor just a couple of windows west of Oswald's location.
More
HERE.
RON BULMAN SAID:
Think Oswald got hungry smelling the fried chicken? Did he eat his cheese sandwich while waiting for JFK, race down the stairs after shooting JFK for a coke to wash it down, and of course throw his wrapping for the sandwich in the trash there as any good Commie would do? Before sauntering out onto the front steps after he met Baker and Truly, where?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
You've got several things occurring there, Ron, that are merely speculation on your part. (And I admit, I'm speculating about several things too in my
Oswald Timeline. Some things we
have to speculate about, if we want to discuss them at all, such as
Oswald's whereabouts at various times throughout the day of November 22, 1963).
Your speculation above includes Oswald eating a cheese sandwich. But there's no proof he ever ate
anything at all for his lunch that day. We only have
his word for that. And I don't think that Oswald's "word" is exactly a highly reliable source to go on if you're looking for the truth connected to either murder that
Oswald himself was charged with committing. In short, Lee Harvey Oswald
lied about a lot of things after his arrest that day.
TONY KROME SAID:
Is this how you imagine it?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Yes, that's about right.
And we know from the re-enactment performed in
this 1964 Secret Service film that a person who was sitting or squatting within the Sniper's Nest in the southeast corner of that sixth floor would definitely be hidden from the view of other people who might have been standing to the
west of the Sniper's Nest. (Go to
11:33 in that linked video to see the re-enactment.)
Bonnie Ray Williams, in his Warren Commission testimony, said:
"I ate my lunch--I am not sure about this, but the third or the fourth set of windows, I believe."
Now, regardless of which end of the building Williams was referring to as his starting point (East or West) when he said
"the third or the fourth set of windows", it likely means that Williams ate his lunch pretty close to the MIDDLE part of the sixth floor (given the fact that there are
seven total "sets" of windows comprising the width of the Book Depository Building).
Given the way the book cartons were
stacked up around the southeast corner window *, I can easily envision Oswald being able to hide from the view of Bonnie Ray Williams during the brief period of time that Williams was up on the sixth floor on November 22.
* The linked photo (
CE726) is, however, probably a "reconstructed" arrangement of the boxes. I'm not positive of that fact, but since the photo in
CE723 was taken on November 25, 1963 (per the information found at
17 H xvii), then it's probably safe to assume that the picture seen in CE726 is a reconstructed photo as well.
TONY KROME SAID:
Let's take a look at a small part of [Arnold] Rowland's testimony without concerning ourselves with the remainder:
Mr. SPECTER - Over how long a time span did you observe the Negro man? [Rowland believes 6th floor, so this question relates to that]
Mr. ROWLAND - He was there before I noticed the man with the rifle. [Rowland stated he saw this Rifle man at approx 12:15pm]
At this point, Dave, I'm not interested in the man with the rifle,
nor the location of Negro man or Rifle man, only the
timestamp.
Rowland places a Negro man on the 6th floor just before 12:15pm and you have have placed Williams on the 6th floor at the same time as per the photo I presented to you.
Do you think it's a sheer fluke that Rowland stated that there was a Negro man on the 6th floor at just before 12:15pm and that it turned out to be a fact?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Well, the black man Arnold Rowland saw on the sixth floor could very well have been Bonnie Ray Williams. We know from Williams' own testimony that he WAS on the sixth floor at about that time (approx. 12:10 to 12:20 PM).
We can know from Williams' testimony, however, that he was never located in the southeast corner window, even though Rowland places him there at one point during
his testimony. But Williams himself tells us that cannot be the case.
So, should we believe Williams or Rowland? I'd choose Williams in this instance, since he would be more aware of where he was on the sixth floor than Rowland would be.
I know where you're going with this line of thought, of course ---- You're wondering how the heck Rowland could have seen Williams
BEFORE he saw the gunman
STANDING in front of the window on the
WEST side of the sixth floor, and yet not have Williams seeing the gunman (Oswald) too.
Well, that's a fair point.
My answer would be----
Arnold Rowland was just a little bit inaccurate with respect to some of the timestamps he put on the things he saw on 11/22/63....which couldn't be more common among witnesses.
Another possibility is that Rowland didn't really see
any Negro on the sixth floor that day. Instead, he could have seen Harold Norman "hanging out" of the
FIFTH-floor window directly under the sixth-floor Sniper's Nest window.
I think several witnesses made that same "5th or 6th floor?" mistake on November 22nd. They claimed things were happening on the
SIXTH floor (in the southeast corner window), but what they very likely were seeing was occurring in the
FIFTH-floor window instead. (Check out the affidavits of witnesses
Ronald Fischer and
Robert Edwards for verification of this phenomenon.)
TONY KROME SAID:
So we have Rowland's eyes directly on the 6th floor at just before 12:15pm where he likely saw Williams.
Now, you place Oswald with a rifle on the 6th floor at 12:15pm and Rowland believes he saw a man with a rifle on the 6th floor at 12:15pm.
Again, forget about the location, but do you see a pattern here? Rowland gets it right again, he believed he saw a rifle man on the 6th floor at 12:15pm, and according to you, this is another fact.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
In the past, I've talked about the timing of Arnold Rowland's observations....
http://jfk-archives/Arnold Rowland & The Black Man
TONY KROME SAID:
Yes, I've read that,
But we've moved on from the "black" man. You have Williams as moving to the 5th floor around the 12:15pm mark, so he's gone.
I want to get into more detail, so I was hoping you could address this:
Rowland gets it right again, he believed he saw a rifle man on the 6th floor at 12:15pm, and according to you, it's a fact that a rifle man was on the 6th floor at 12:15pm.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Yes, Tony, it's true that I believe that a
lone rifleman (named Oswald) was located on the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository Building at 12:15 PM CST on 11/22/63.
And
YES, I do believe that Arnold Rowland "got it right" when he said he saw a man holding a rifle on the sixth floor of the TSBD
before any shooting occurred in Dealey Plaza that day. And that is one of the reasons I disagree with Vincent Bugliosi on this point. He thinks Rowland was making up tall tales. But it's Rowland's testimony about seeing the gunman
prior to the motorcade arriving, and
telling his wife about it at that time (BEFORE the motorcade arrived) that convinces me that Mr. Rowland was not just making up a story out of whole cloth.
And it's really the testimony (and the
11/22/63 affidavit) of Rowland's wife, Barbara Rowland, that cinches the deal for me on Arnold Rowland's truthfulness. Because she too would have to be making up a lie (or she would have to be willing to just
go along with her husband's lie) in order for Arnold's testimony to be false about seeing a man with a gun on the 6th floor
before the shooting even started. And I see no reason to believe that Mrs. Barbara Rowland was a liar.
TONY KROME SAID:
Ok, now we bring in the location....
You have Oswald hiding in the Sniper's Nest while Williams is munching on a chicken bone sandwich.
Williams then departs for the 5th floor.
I assume you have Oswald all alone at this point on the 6th floor.
Rowland was quite specific on where he saw the rifle man, and that was the southwest corner, where he drew an arrow to on
CE356.
Is there an impossibility, in your mind, that Oswald could not have walked from the Sniper's Nest to the southwest corner, surveyed the area from this viewpoint, and returned to the Sniper's Nest?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
I think it's quite possible that Oswald did exactly what you just suggested above, Tony. And in my previously-linked
"Oswald Timeline" (which I originally wrote at the alt.conspiracy.jfk Usenet newsgroup on
April 16, 2007), I theorize about a similar scenario:
"11:55 AM-12:05 PM (estimated) -- Oswald has the whole sixth floor to himself. This is just prior to Bonnie Ray Williams coming back up to the 6th Floor to eat his lunch. It's my belief that Lee Oswald, during this (approx.) 10-minute time period around noon or shortly after, probably went to the west end of the sixth floor (where he had his rifle hidden in the brown bag). Oswald unwraps the rifle at the west end of the sixth floor and assembles the rifle at the west end (hence, Arnold Rowland sees a white man with a rifle at the west end of the building at approx. this time, maybe a little later, 12:15 or so, but keep in mind the approximation of all times). It's quite possible, IMO, that Oswald initially was considering using the WEST-end window as his shooting window. But, for one reason or another, he decided that a window on the EAST end of the sixth floor would better serve his purposes. Perhaps he was mentally factoring in the angles and trajectories in his head, and possibly realized that an east-end perch would be a better one, especially since the Secret Service agents would all have their backs to him when he began firing, if he decided to wait until after the cars had turned the Elm/Houston corner....which, IMO, Oswald definitely had in his mind to do, due to the pre-arranged way the rifle-rest boxes were constructed (i.e., in a "Rifle Always Pointing West/Southwest" manner). It's also possible that, as Oswald mulled over potential shooting locations, he realized that a goodly number of boxes were already down on the east end of the 6th Floor, which would make constructing a makeshift "Nest" all the easier for him."
-- DVP; April 2007
----------------
Let me also add this....
When re-examining the timelines provided by Arnold Rowland and Bonnie Ray Williams, it's very possible, in my opinion, that
BOTH Rowland and Williams might very well be
correct in their timelines (or pretty close to being accurate anyway).
I said earlier ---
"Arnold Rowland was just a little bit inaccurate with respect to some of the timestamps he put on the things he saw."
But when comparing Rowland's timeline with Bonnie Ray's, it could be that Rowland's timing
was fairly accurate, because Williams said he got to the sixth floor to eat his lunch at
"about 12", and he also said:
"I was there from--5, 10, maybe 12 minutes".
That timeline provided by Williams would mean he left the sixth floor no later than 12:12 PM, which would be three minutes before Rowland said he saw the white man with a rifle on the west end of the sixth floor.
So that "merging" of the Rowland/Williams timelines fits very nicely, and it does no harm whatsoever to the "Oswald Did It Alone" scenario that I firmly endorse. And via that "merging" of timelines, Rowland
can, indeed, see a Negro (Williams) on the sixth floor
BEFORE he sees a white man with a rifle standing on the west side of the same sixth floor. And this can occur without the need of Williams seeing Oswald standing at the west end---because Williams has already left the 6th floor via this scenario.
Then, after Williams departs the 6th floor between approximately 12:05 and 12:12 PM (per Williams' own estimate), Oswald then moves (for some unknown reason that nobody will ever be able to fully figure out) from the Sniper's Nest (where he had been temporarily "hiding" from Williams) to the west side of the building, where (again, for some unknown reason) he decides to make himself and his Mannlicher-Carcano rifle plainly visible to Arnold L. Rowland, as Oswald stands in front of the west-end window while holding his rifle.
David Von Pein
February 27—March 1, 2019 [This forum link is no longer available.]
================================
ANOTHER RELATED DISCUSSION....
JEAN PAUL CEULEMANS SAID THIS.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Since you've touched on the subject of Bonnie Ray Williams and the fact that he decided (for whatever reason) to litter the sixth floor of the Book Depository with the remnants of his lunch on 11/22/63....I hope everyone here won't mind if I indulge in a little bit of comic relief on the topic of Bonnie Ray and his Nov. 22nd lunch feast....
My favorite part of Bonnie Ray Williams' Warren Commission session [
seen here] has always been his testimony about the
chicken-on-the-bone sandwich that he said he ate for lunch when he was up on the 6th floor on 11/22.
I can't help but chuckle whenever I run across that testimony. And so, just for fun, in the year 2010 (in
this Usenet newsgroup posting) and again in 2016 (in
this post at
The Education Forum), I decided to spread the mirth and merriment concerning Bonnie Ray's hard-to-swallow noontime meal in those two Internet messages linked above (and screen-captured below).
P.S. -- If Bonnie Ray Williams is still with us here on this Earth, I want him to know that I'm not making fun of
him. I'm only snickering at his choice of November 22 luncheon entrees, which should have made every dentist in Dallas County jump for joy due to the increased business Bonnie Ray's bone-riddled poultry delicacy surely supplied them.
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PAT SPEER SAID THIS.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Putting a piece of bone-in chicken between two pieces of bread is ludicrous (in the south or anywhere else). What's the point of even doing that when nobody who isn't insane is going to pick it up and eat it as a "sandwich" anyway? It's just silly.
But, as they say, variety is the spice of life (and sandwiches). :)
BTW, Joseph Ball of the Warren Commission [at
3 H 169] also seemed to think it was a bit strange to eat a sandwich with bones in it.
LARRY HANCOCK SAID THIS.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
I love chicken sandwiches. In fact, when I operated my KFC restaurant here in the Hoosier State, I would regularly take one of our center-cut breast pieces (which we referred to as a "keel") and make a sandwich out of it for my lunch. But I'd make sure to debone the bird before putting
any of it between the bread. Which is what any sensible person would do, of course. (No offense to the south—or to Mr. Bonnie Ray Williams—intended.) :)
PAT SPEER SAID THIS.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Well, of course a "sandwich" consists of bread and meat, Pat. No argument there. The ridiculous thing that we've been talking about in this thread is having
BONES in a
SANDWICH. Because "Bones" and "Sandwich" do not mix. No way, no how.
DAVID VON PEIN ALSO SAID:
As a side note to all this "chicken" talk, I thought I'd post this newspaper ad that I found recently, which is something that really illustrates in no uncertain terms just how much times have changed since 1963 when it comes to the cost of fast food in North America.
Just take a gander at all the food you could get for only
$4.95 at the local KFC outlet in Windsor, Ontario, Canada, in July of 1963! This Picnic Pack seems like a steal of a deal---even for JFK's era. This amount of food would cost over $50 today. Oh, how I wish it were 1963 again! If only to see these prices one more time! ....
CLICK TO ENLARGE:
More shockingly low food prices from the 1950s and 1960s can be found amongst the various KFC ads I've collected and put on
this webpage. It's a time warp experience indeed.
DVP ALSO SAID THIS.
JOSEPH McBRIDE SAID THIS.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Nonsense. The widespread inaccurate reporting on radio and television on November 22nd about Oswald eating a chicken dinner while waiting for JFK to enter the kill zone was just another of the
innocent and
understandable mistakes made by the media in the immediate aftermath of the assassination. It wasn't designed to be "propaganda" at all.
At the time those erroneous "chicken dinner" reports were being broadcast, the media
really did think the President's killer was up there on the 6th floor munching on chicken while he waited for Kennedy to arrive in Dealey Plaza. And given the close proximity of the chicken scraps and the soft drink bottle to the assassin's Sniper's Nest in the Depository, a reasonable and understandable conclusion to reach was that JFK's murderer had, indeed, been the one who was dining on chicken just before pulling the trigger.
No intentional "propaganda" there at all. Merely a perfectly logical mistake made by media personnel who were merely trying their best to quickly report to the world all the details they could concerning one of the worst tragedies of the 20th century. Nothing more than that.
David Von Pein
October 2022
================================
ALSO SEE:
