MISC. JFK POSTS OF INTEREST
(PART 126)


VINCENT BUGLIOSI:
https://alt.assassination.jfk/w9Sbhe2AMM4/Kxr0i6CtDQAJ
https://alt.assassination.jfk/w9Sbhe2AMM4/8oc8jcgEDgAJ
https://alt.assassination.jfk/w9Sbhe2AMM4/LNCcHuVkDgAJ


DAVID LIFTON:
http://educationforum.com/topic=23250/comment=343082


JOHN CONNALLY'S WRIST:
https://alt.conspiracy.jfk/kuUOM3mzUMs/pkiVAF4jAwAJ
https://alt.conspiracy.jfk/RXXCNBHiiNs/zRwm4jwQBAAJ


CONCLUSIVE FACTS MEAN VERY LITTLE TO CONSPIRACISTS:
https://alt.conspiracy.jfk/6-jkupuxEZ8/f01HqnKhBAAJ


THE HOLES IN JFK'S CLOTHES:
http://educationforum.com/topic=23250/comment=343592


A BULLET IN JFK'S CHEST?:
https://alt.conspiracy.jfk/CBEuU435AUc/huoMus5xAwAJ
https://alt.conspiracy.jfk/CBEuU435AUc/Ppmn4KCFAwAJ


DONALD TRUMP, CRAZY CONSPIRACISTS, & OTHER THINGS:
http://educationforum.com/topic=23375/comment=342687


THE ENTRY WOUND IN JFK'S HEAD:
http://educationforum.com/topic=23250/comment=343183
http://educationforum.com/topic=23250/comment=343186
http://educationforum.com/topic=23250/comment=343669


DOROTHY KILGALLEN:
https://www.amazon.com/review/RUNOBK5G2MTAX


DVP VS. ROBERT HARRIS:
https://alt.assassination.jfk/nRZdGnmm0lE/bpFVulQKDAAJ
https://alt.assassination.jfk/WQPUU8vuipQ/AaVEgwfyDAAJ


ZAPRUDER FILM FAKERY?:
http://educationforum.com/topic=23250/comment=343808
http://educationforum.com/topic=23250/comment=343825


MY THANKS TO CONSPIRACY THEORIST BEN HOLMES:
https://alt.conspiracy.jfk/e0YyXiL0SL4/tZTznUiCDAAJ



================================










JFK ASSASSINATION ARGUMENTS
(PART 1228)


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

CE573 [the "General Walker bullet"] looks just like a Carcano bullet. Anybody can tell that just by glancing at a picture of CE573:



I've always been surprised that no firearms expert could link it to Rifle C2766, because it sure looks like it's got plenty of undamaged surface area to make a positive identification. But evidently not.


GIL JESUS SAID:

No one's saying that CE 573 isn't a MC bullet. I'm suggesting that based on the observations of General Walker, CE 573 is not the bullet they found. It's substituted evidence. Can't any of you nuts read?


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

So, does this mean you think CE573 IS a bullet fired from Oswald's Carcano? Or do you think the evil cops used a different Carcano to create the phony Walker bullet?

BTW, who placed that fake bullet in the record?

And another question:

If Oswald didn't shoot at Walker, then why did LHO write out this note for Marina, indicating he might be killed or taken into custody? Or is that note a fraud too?

You see, it isn't JUST the Walker bullet that ties Lee Harvey Oswald to that shooting. There are other things too. Weren't the cops lucky that their patsy confessed to the shooting you say he never committed?


GIL JESUS SAID:

Oswald confessed to shooting at Walker? Funny I can't find that in the report.

Citation?


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

He confessed to Marina.

So, unless Marina was a bald-faced liar in December 1963 (in a Secret Service report; CE1789), and again in February 1964 (in her Warren Commission testimony), and again in 1978 (in her HSCA testimony), and again in November 2000 (in an interview with Vincent Bugliosi), then Oswald confessed to shooting at General Walker. Period.




WALT CAKEBREAD SAID:

HUH!??? What the hell are you babbling about? Lee Oswald was already decaying and pushing up daisies when the authorities learned that he had been involved in the shooting at Walker's house in April of 63.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Yes, of course.

But when I said this yesterday....

"Weren't the cops lucky that their patsy confessed to the shooting you say he never committed?"

....I was obviously talking about the fact that Marina Oswald later told the authorities and the Warren Commission that LHO had, in effect, "confessed" to shooting at Walker.

In fact, the way things came to the attention of the police makes it much LESS likely that anyone was "setting up" Oswald for ANY murders or murder attempts in 1963.

Why?

Because the cops didn't know about Oswald's involvement in the Walker shooting until AFTER OSWALD WAS DEAD. The authorities had no idea that Lee Oswald was involved in the Walker incident until many days after 11/22/63.

Therefore, if the cops were really framing Oswald for both the JFK and Tippit murders on November 22, 23, and 24, 1963 (as many conspiracy theorists believe), then the Dallas Police Department sure got a big break when they found out, many days later, that the man they were in the process of framing for the Kennedy and Tippit murders had, in fact, really tried to kill another political figure seven months earlier.

I think even most CTers will admit that a made-to-order patsy like that doesn't fall into your lap every day of the week. How lucky can a patsy-framer possibly get?!

Or, given the above-mentioned circumstances, a better question would be:

How on Earth can anyone in their right mind truly believe that the Dallas Police and the FBI were trying to frame Lee Oswald for the murders of JFK and J.D. Tippit?

The conspiracy theorists love to sidestep (or just totally ignore) Oswald's involvement in the Walker shooting. Because if they don't ignore it or distort it, then the CTers will have to admit that the man they think never fired a single shot at anyone on November 22, 1963, HAD MURDER RUNNING THROUGH HIS VEINS just seven months before President Kennedy was assassinated. And that is something that conspiracy theorists simply do not want to admit.

I think the following passage from the Warren Commission Report is rather interesting too. This passage is referring to the evidence that Lee Oswald left behind after he shot at General Walker in April 1963, but it also parallels Oswald's actions and the evidence he left behind after he shot JFK and Officer Tippit in November:

"Marina Oswald's testimony indicates that her husband was not particularly concerned about his continued possession of the most incriminating sort of evidence." -- Warren Report; Page 405

I also want to point out the following section of testimony from Marina Oswald. Marina told the Warren Commission this:

"He only told me that he had shot at General Walker."
-- Marina Oswald (1 H 16)


WALT CAKEBREAD SAID:

They [the Dallas Police] COULD have asked him [Lee Oswald] about his involvement in the Walker shooting (and we don't know that they didn't) on the evening of 11/22/63 because "someone" (Jack Ruby?) in the crowd called out to Chief Jesse Curry...."Chief, is this connected to the shooting at general Walker back in April?". ("THIS" was referring to the murders of JFK and JD Tippit.)

Any thinking person would immediately ask themselves....Who was this man who attempted to tie Oswald to the Walker incident and the assassination of JFK? How would anybody know that Oswald was involved in the Walker incident?? That case was unsolved and there wasn't a hint that Oswald had been involved and yet some "reporter" tried to tie the two crimes together.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Yes, a reporter did, indeed, ask Chief Jesse Curry if JFK's murder had any connection to the Walker shooting. The reporter asked Curry that question on 11/23/63, however, not on the 22nd. Curry's answer was: "I do not know" (go to 6:13 in the video below).



I, too, thought it was rather interesting when I first heard that clip of the reporter asking about any Walker tie-in. But to suggest that the reporter was really Jack Ruby, and that Ruby was attempting to frame Oswald in some way by bringing up the Walker incident during a press conference with Chief Curry, is simply more naked and unprovable speculation on the part of CTers.

Many people in Dallas knew about the unsolved Walker shooting. So it certainly isn't beyond imagination to think that a crackerjack reporter might have tied the two things together as of November 23rd. And that, in fact, is precisely what did occur -- the reporter made a good guess and tied the Walker shooting to the JFK assassination. Simple as that. And, furthermore, his guess on 11/23/63 was absolutely correct.

ADDENDUM:

Here are some related excerpts from Vincent Bugliosi's book concerning Lee Harvey Oswald, Marina Oswald, and the attempted murder of General Edwin Walker:

"Since we know that Oswald attempted to murder General Walker because he confessed to his own wife that he did, nothing further is required to make the point. But in addition to his letter of instructions to Marina, which has survived, and has been confirmed to be in Oswald's handwriting, as well as the photos Oswald took of Walker's residence, there is some other independent evidence, though not conclusive by itself, connecting Oswald to the attempted murder of Walker.

The Dallas police took the slug found at the Walker residence to the Dallas City-County Investigation Laboratory at Parkland Hospital on April 25, 1963, to see if lab technicians could determine the type of gun from which it was fired. Within a few days the lab reported back that it could not do so "because of the battered condition of the bullet."

On November 30, 1963, the FBI, thinking there possibly could be a connection between the Kennedy assassination and the Walker shooting, requested the bullet from the Dallas Police Department for examination, and the local office of the FBI sent the slug by registered mail to the FBI lab in Washington, D.C., on December 2, 1963.

Robert Frazier, the FBI firearms expert, testified before the Warren Commission that because of the mutilated condition of the Walker bullet, he was "unable to reach a conclusion" as to whether or not the bullet was fired from Oswald's Carcano rifle, the one he determined was the weapon that killed President Kennedy. However, he said that "the general rifling characteristics of the rifle 139 [Commission Exhibit No. 139, Oswald's Carcano] are of the same type as those found on the bullet, [Commission] Exhibit [No.] 573 [Walker slug]," and therefore, at least on this basis, "the bullet could have been fired from the rifle."

The general rifling characteristics on the Walker bullet and the barrel of the Carcano were "four lands and grooves" with a "right" twist. Frazier said the Walker bullet was fired from a Mannlicher-Carcano rifle or one with similar barrel characteristics. Frazier also said the "remaining physical characteristics of this bullet, 573, are the same as Western [Cartridge Company] 6.5mm Mannlicher-Carcano bullets...made for this rifle, 139."

When Dr. Vincent Guinn made his neutron activation analysis of the bullet for the HSCA, he determined that it was "extremely likely" that the Walker bullet was a Mannlicher-Carcano bullet manufactured by the Western Cartridge Company, the same as the ammunition used in the Kennedy assassination (1 HSCA 502, HSCA testimony of Dr. Guinn on September 8, 1978).

The Dallas Police Department's "General Offense Report" on April 10, 1963, its first report on the Walker shooting, described the bullet as a "steel-jacketed bullet" (CE 2001, 24 H 39), whereas the 6.5-millimeter Mannlicher-Carcano bullets were copper-jacketed. Frazier told the Warren Commission that "some individuals commonly refer to rifle bullets as steel-jacketed bullets, when they actually in fact just have a copper alloy jacket" (3 H 439).

Although the bullet was too damaged to find the essential "microscopic characteristics" (markings) to match up with the barrel of Oswald's Carcano that would enable Frazier to connect the Walker bullet to the Carcano to the exclusion of all other weapons, importantly, Frazier said he found NO microscopic characteristics on the bullet that would indicate it was NOT fired from the Carcano."
-- Vincent Bugliosi; Pages 694-695 of "Reclaiming History"

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"When she [Marina Oswald] insisted on Oswald's innocence [during a personal interview that Vincent Bugliosi had with Marina on November 30, 2000], suggesting he would never do such a murderous act, I reminded her that he had, in fact, attempted to murder Major General Edwin Walker, and she readily admitted he had, telling me she knew this because "Lee told me he did." But she hastened to add that the president was different because "Lee liked Kennedy." And Jack Duffy, who has studied the assassination for years and leans toward the conspiracy theory, asked Marina if she had taken "the backyard photos" of Oswald holding the Carcano rifle. "Yes," she answered evenly, "I did." "That settles that issue," Duffy said." -- Vincent Bugliosi; Page 1487 of "Reclaiming History"


WALT CAKEBREAD SAID:

General Walker was sweating his balls off. He was scared to death that Oswald was going to reveal that he and Walker and [George] De Morhenschildt [sic] had conspired and plotted a hoax that would have been beneficial to Walker in his quest for publicity, and beneficial to Oswald by making him appear to be a radical communist revolutionary who had tried to kill one of Castro's most vocal foes. Walker wanted to nail Oswald's coffin shut just as soon as possible.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

~chuckle~

Can it get any goofier than this, folks? I ask you.

And, yes, it's obvious that the reporter just guessed when he asked Curry about any potential tie-in between the events of 11/22 and the Walker shooting in April. To believe that it was anything but a guess and speculation on the reporter's part would be to engage in the kind of absurdly over-the-top speculation that Walt has engaged in above concerning a wholly unsupportable theory that has Edwin Walker knowing Lee Oswald and participating in some silly charade in April '63 which had Oswald only PRETENDING to want to kill Walker.

ADDENDUM:

FWIW, here are some excerpts from the 1964 Warren Commission testimony of Major General Edwin A. Walker (re: George DeMohrenschildt):

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any other information that you think the
Commission ought to have that we haven't already talked about?

General WALKER. Yes. I think the Commission should look into George
DeMohrenschildt, if it hasn't.

Mr. LIEBELER. What do you know about Mr. DeMohrenschildt?

General WALKER. I know that my information indicates that he lived
next door to the professor that was supposed to have burned up.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any information that would connect
DeMohrenschildt to the assassination of President Kennedy in any way?

General WALKER. I have the information the paper had that connected
him with the Oswalds.

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes?

General WALKER. Of course, it is common knowledge that DeMohrenschildt
was associated with Oswald now.

Mr. LIEBELER. Other than that, do you have any information to indicate
that DeMohrenschildt was involved in any way with the assassination of
President Kennedy?

General WALKER. Not directly.

General [Clyde J.] WATTS. Do you have any indirect evidence?

General WALKER. I am tired of them blaming the rightwing, and I have
had enough of this, and it is about time that the Commission cleared
the city of Dallas.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, now, do you have any indirect indication or
evidence that would associate DeMohrenschildt with the assassination
of President Kennedy in any way?

General WALKER. I think it is very important that DeMohrenschildt knew
Oswald. I think it is very interesting. My information is that
DeMohrenschildt went to Haiti. I have nothing further to add.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, is there anything else that you think the
Commission ought to know that we have not already mentioned here this
evening? It is now 7:15.

General WALKER. Where am I at?

Mr. LIEBELER. I didn't mean to suggest--I just wanted to let the
record show we are both working very hard.

General WALKER. I will stay here all night.

Mr. LIEBELER. If you have anything else that you think the Commission
should know or that you consider to be of material importance, I want
you to say so, General Walker, because...I hope you realize that the
Commission is trying to do the best job that it can with the situation,
and that if you can be of help to us, or if anybody else could be of help
to us, we want your help.

General WALKER. That is my approach to the problem. We certainly want
the truth. We want the truth to come out.


GIL JESUS SAID:

Marina lied to everybody.

The FBI, the SS and the WC.

Read the documents and testimony.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

And you think she was still lying in November of 2000 when she said the things she said to Vince Bugliosi and Jack Duffy?

E.G. (paraphrased),

"I took the backyard photos"; and "Lee told me he shot at Walker."

Why would she still be lying about those things 37 years later? You can't possibly use the worn-out "deportation" excuse in the year 2000.

David Von Pein
January 10-13, 2012









JFK ASSASSINATION ARGUMENTS
(PART 1227)


BEN HOLMES SAID:

Vincent Bugliosi [claims on Page 955 of his book "Reclaiming History" that Lee Harvey] Oswald always visited Marina in Irving on a Friday. November 21 was the first Thursday visit ever.

[...]

In fact, Bugliosi is lying about Nov. 21st being the 'first Thursday visit ever.' Nor is it the first midweek visit. It's true that such midweek visits weren't common - but it's a lie to state that they never occurred.

[...]

Lying about the known evidence in order to 'create' evidence for your belief isn't very convincing.

It's CERTAINLY not proof that Oswald murdered JFK.


BUD SAID:

You failed to show that Bugliosi's assertion is untrue.

[...]

You need evidence that establishes that Oswald stayed at the Paines on a weekday prior to 11-21.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

That fact is, in fact, established in this Warren Commission testimony of Ruth Paine, where she confirms that LHO stayed over at Ruth's house on Monday, October 21, after Marina gave birth the night before.

And Vince Bugliosi fully acknowledges LHO's 10/21/63 visit to the Paine home, in a footnote on Page 798 of "Reclaiming History":


CLICK TO ENLARGE:


As for Ben Holmes' paper-thin argument about Lee Oswald going out to Irving on a Thursday in late October or early November (via Mrs. Tarrants' FBI interview), that topic is also fully addressed and covered by Bugliosi in his book, as I discuss here.


BUD SAID:

Nicely done, David. I did skim through Marina and Mrs Paine's testimony looking to see if either mentioned weekday stay overs.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

For Ben's information....

Vince Bugliosi's quote on page 955 of his book (re: Oswald always going to Irving on Fridays prior to 11/21/63) is actually refuted by Bugliosi himself in his very own book (as I proved earlier when I posted this excerpt from Vincent's book).

So, obviously, Vince himself knew that the remark on page 955 was not entirely accurate. That's part of the problem with such a huge, long book that is written over a number of years (even decades). Some things that Vince might have written in the 1980s or 1990s end up needing modifications or corrections by the time the book finally gets published. And on a few occasions, these corrections just never got done in VB's book. And I think that (very minor) error that crops up on page 955 might be one of those occasions.


BEN HOLMES SAID:

He [Bugliosi] either told an INTENTIONAL lie, or you're simply speculating on what he "knew".


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Well, Ben, I can tell you that it's almost certainly true that Vincent Bugliosi, as of July 1986 (the date of the filming of the mock trial in London, England), had no knowledge of Oswald's excursion to Irving on Monday, October 21st.

Why do I say that?

Because of the questions Vince asked Ruth Paine while Ruth was on the witness stand during the 1986 mock trial. Have a look and listen to the words Vince uses when he's asking Ruth questions regarding the days of the week when Oswald would visit the Paine home (fast forward to 4:33):



Now, you can argue (if you want to) that Bugliosi was just doing what he was hired to do by London Weekend Television in 1986---he was just playing the part of a prosecuting attorney. And you can argue (if you desire) that Vince knew full well (even in 1986) that the way he asked Ruth Paine the "invariably on Friday night" question was not the proper way to ask that question. And you can surmise that Vince, even in 1986, knew darn well that Lee Oswald had, indeed, visited Ruth's dwelling on a day other than a Friday, but he asked the question the way he asked it anyway, regardless of what he knew the truth of the matter to be. (Do you want to suggest that?)

But if you do argue such points, I'll beg to differ with you. And the main reason I would be inclined to differ with you is because of something I said about Vince in 2011:

"I refuse to ever believe that Vincent Bugliosi is (or ever was) an outright liar. I refuse to believe that Vince would be willing to print something in one of his books that he KNOWS IS A FLAT-OUT LIE. I will never believe that kind of thing could ever apply to Mr. Vincent Bugliosi. Because, in my opinion, Vince is just not cut from that sort of devious cloth. If certain conspiracy theorists want to disagree with my last comment, so be it. But I'll always stand by what I just said." -- DVP; July 14, 2011


BEN HOLMES SAID:

#8 [on Vince Bugliosi's list of "53 Things Pointing To Oswald's Guilt"] [paraphrased] -- On arrival at the TSBD, Oswald walked faster and ahead of Frazier for the first time ever.

Silly! Since when does "walking fast" have anything at all to do with indicting someone??? Sometimes Bugliosi really stretches to try to find something to 'prove' Oswald's guilt, this is a good example of his tendency to do this.

Again we see the theme of presuming guilt on Oswald's part, then pretending that everything he did and said shows that guilt. Since when does "walking fast" show guilt of anything at all???

Lurkers: Watch carefully as not a *SINGLE* [Lone Assassin] believer will acknowledge the obvious - and will all try to defend the fact that if someone walks ahead of another person, they are guilty of committing, by themselves, a murder.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

As Bud has pointed out so many times, and it deserves repeating in every single one of Ben's silly threads where he has deluded himself into thinking he has "refuted" Vincent Bugliosi's "53 Things".....

Conspiracy theorists (particularly "Internet CTers") are the very last people on the face of the globe who should be looking into the JFK assassination---because virtually none of those CTers have the slightest capacity for properly and reasonably and rationally examining the evidence (and Lee Harvey Oswald's actions and movements) associated with the events on 11/22/63.

And Ben just proved that point yet again with his post above.

Hint for Ben --- Did you ever once ask yourself this: WHY does Lee Oswald, for the FIRST TIME EVER, decide that he wants to walk well AHEAD of Buell Wesley Frazier as they walk toward the Book Depository Building on November 22nd, 1963?


DAVID VON PEIN ALSO SAID:

What caused the bullet hole in JFK's throat [if it wasn't caused by a bullet exiting his throat]? And where did that bullet go? And why wasn't it in JFK's body at autopsy?


BEN HOLMES SAID:

The wound in JFK's throat was exactly what the doctors who saw it originally thought...an entry wound. That bullet ranged downward toward JFK's chest.

It wasn't in JFK's body at the autopsy because it was pulled out in the pre-autopsy autopsy that took place between 6:40 and 8:00pm.

[...]

This is why [DVP] is too much the coward to post [at Ben's deserted forum]. He knows that there's absolutely NOTHING he can post that I can't answer in a reasonable, credible way, AND SUPPORTED BY THE EVIDENCE.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Please note the multiple lies uttered by Ben Holmes above:

Ben thinks that this statement....

"That bullet ranged downward toward JFK's chest."

...is "SUPPORTED BY THE EVIDENCE" in this case. Of course Ben is lying, because such a desperate theory put forth by Ben is most certainly NOT supported by the "evidence" in this case at all. There is NO evidence that any bullet "ranged downward toward JFK's chest". None. Ben is engaging in nothing but blatant speculation and wishful thinking, and nothing more. (As per usual.)

And, incredibly, Ben also seems to think this statement too is "SUPPORTED BY THE EVIDENCE"....

"It wasn't in JFK's body at the autopsy because it was pulled out in the pre-autopsy autopsy that took place between 6:40 and 8:00pm."

This one's even more hysterical than the first part about Ben's nonexistent bullet that "ranged downward" into Kennedy's body. Ben has now invented a second autopsy from whole cloth and pure speculation (and more desperation). And he's also invented (from whole cloth, of course) a scenario which has some conspirator digging a whole bullet out of JFK's chest/throat. And that, too, per Delusional Benji, is supposedly "SUPPORTED BY THE EVIDENCE" in the JFK case as well. (Can it get much funnier than this?)

Of course, it wasn't Ben's idea to invent the "pre-autopsy autopsy" nonsense. That idea was hatched by David Lifton in the late 1960s for Lifton's book
"Best Evidence". Ben has merely latched on to Lifton's (and also super-kook Douglas Horne's) coattails and has decided to declare as a FACT the notion that JFK's wounds were altered at some kind of covert "pre-autopsy autopsy" on 11/22/63.

Now THAT'S desperation with a great big capital D, folks.

I've got a good idea for a new Internet series. The title: "Refuting A Kook Named Holmes". I'll start it off with a whole bunch of stuff HERE.


DAVID VON PEIN ALSO SAID THIS.


BUD SAID:

You [Ben Holmes] said you were going to refute Bugliosi. I'm just waiting to see if you can do this. So far you have been very disappointing.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

And Ben will continue to disappoint, and that's because virtually all of Bugliosi's arguments (when evaluated and weighed AS A UNIT, and not merely isolated individually) make perfect sense to any reasonable person who knows the basic facts of the JFK murder case.

Among the items on Mr. Bugliosi's list of "53 Things", I can think of only two items that really don't belong there (IMO) -- Item #41 (about the paraffin test) and item #23 (concerning Oswald changing his trousers).

More of my thoughts about "The VB 53" here.


DAVID VON PEIN ALSO SAID:

Ben Holmes has been on the Outer Fringe Conspiracy Team for many years now. We can't expect him to suddenly become a reasonable individual, now can we?


BEN HOLMES SAID:

You're lying again, Davy...

I'm quite midstream in views. You cannot point to any "outer fringe" assertion I've ever made.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

I can't? Let's try this one on for size then....

"That bullet...wasn't in JFK's body at the autopsy because it was pulled out in the pre-autopsy autopsy that took place between 6:40 and 8:00pm." -- Ben Holmes; January 18, 2017

Now, if the above statement about a "pre-autopsy autopsy" isn't to be considered "outer fringe", then what would be, Ben? In fact, nothing I can think of could possibly be more "outer fringe" than what you said in that January 18th quote I just cited above.


BEN HOLMES SAID:

A "pre-autopsy" autopsy has been fairly standard among critics since Lifton first made it well-known.

The HSCA lied about the medical evidence largely in response to Lifton.

This is hardly "outer fringe" material.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

You're hilarious, Ben! You're actually going to sit there (or kneel) next to your life-sized statue of Mark Lane and tell me that a belief in a covert "pre-autopsy autopsy" (and body alteration on JFK's corpse) is NOT an "outer fringe" theory?

That's hilarity at its finest!

BTW....

"One theory that perhaps "takes the cake" is set forth by conspiracy author David Lifton in his book "Best Evidence". .... One could safely say that David Lifton took folly to an unprecedented level. And considering the monumental foolishness of his colleagues in the conspiracy community, that's saying something."
-- Vincent Bugliosi; Pages 1057 and 1066 of "Reclaiming History"


BEN HOLMES SAID:

If I told you that President Trump had decided on a new Judicial appointment, I'd reference the one tweet that he gave on that issue, and that would be the definitive source... nothing else would matter... I don't need to provide tweets on his selection criteria, his immigration policy, or anything else.

That you clearly don't understand this is truly funny!!! I quoted & cited Dr. Clark providing the evidence you claimed I didn't have.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

That's one of the big problems with JFK conspiracy theorists --- they always want to ISOLATE certain things and prop those things up ALONE as some kind of "proof" to win their case.

You, Ben, KNOW that there was no bullet dug out of JFK's chest. You KNOW, of course, that no bullet actually did "range downward" into JFK's chest. You know those things from the SUM TOTAL of all the evidence. But you want to PRETEND that something nefarious was happening to JFK's body, so you'll invent a way for a bullet to have "ranged downward" --- i.e., you'll just IGNORE the actual autopsy findings (which verify for all time that no bullet "ranged downward" into the President's body), and you'll hang on for dear life to the WORST possible "evidence", which is the testimony of Dr. Clark and/or Dr. Perry, who were simply using precaution when they inserted the chest tubes in JFK's body.

In other words, those doctors at Parkland Hospital had NO KNOWLEDGE of any "downward ranging" bullet(s).

Ergo, their actions (and resulting testimony and statements) are most certainly NOT "evidence" that a bullet REALLY DID range downward into Kennedy's chest.

You, Ben Holmes, will never acknowledge that I am right on this issue, and you'll never admit that there really is no evidence at all (not even Dr. Clark's testimony) that any bullet "ranged downward" into JFK.

And I fully understand what you're doing. Everybody understands it. It's a game you like to play. It's what "Internet JFK CTers" do --- they pretend and they speculate and they make up absurd theories, such as this one....

"The wound in JFK's throat was exactly what the doctors who saw it originally thought...an entry wound. That bullet ranged downward toward JFK's chest. It wasn't in JFK's body at the autopsy because it was pulled out in the pre-autopsy autopsy that took place between 6:40 and 8:00pm." -- B. Holmes; Jan. 2017

You have no "EVIDENCE" at all that ANY of the above things really happened. None. And you know it! But that won't stop you from calling me a liar ten times a day just so that you won't have to face reality. And that reality is....

You have absolutely no capacity for properly and fairly evaluating the facts, evidence, and testimony associated with the events of November 22, 1963.


BEN HOLMES SAID:

They [the Parkland doctors] SPECIFICALLY treated JFK ON THE BASIS OF THEIR BELIEF THAT A BULLET HAD RANGED DOWNWARD. The chest tubes were inserted for that express purpose.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Not exactly, Ben. Try reading this section of Dr. Kemp Clark's Warren Commission testimony again (at 6 H 28-29):

MR. SPECTER -- "Is the deviation of the trachea and the presence of bleeding on the strap muscles of the neck and the other factors which you have recited equally consistent with a wound of exit on the neck?"

DR. CLARK -- "Yes, sir. Furthermore, let me say that the presence of the deviation of the trachea, with blood in the strap muscles, are by no means diagnostic of penetration of the chest, and the placing of the chest tubes was prophylactic had such an eventuality occurred."

MR. SPECTER -- "Was there any external indication that there was a missile in the chest?"

DR. CLARK -- "No, sir."



BEN HOLMES SAID:

You're just a scumbag of a liar - desperate to avoid the fact THAT THE TREATMENT OF JFK IN THE EMERGENCY ROOM WAS LARGELY BASED ON THE PRESUMPTION OF A BULLET ENTERING HIS THROAT, AND RANGING DOWNWARD IN THE CHEST.

You can keep lying all you want - and I'll simply keep quoting the evidence you claim doesn't exist.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Just look at the words Holmes totally ignores in Dr. Clark's testimony....

"Assumption"
"Assumed"
"Assuming"
"Might have"


In addition, let's have a look at a portion of Dr. Malcolm Perry's 1998 ARRB testimony (DVP's emphasis)....

"That's when I asked that a chest tube be put in place because I didn't know how many times he'd been shot or from what direction. And, of course, the assumption was that he might have a chest wound as well...I asked the chest tubes be put in because once you start pressure-assisted respiration, if he had a chest tube he might have a tension pneumothorax. And not knowing the extent of his head injury with any certainty, as Dr. Jones said, we didn't look at that. We were busy trying to get an airway. And so as it turned out, the chest tubes were not necessary. There was no injury to the chest cavity, but I didn't know that at the time." -- Dr. Malcolm O. Perry; August 27, 1998

How, Ben, does the above testimony of Dr. Perry (and the other testimony of Dr. Clark) add up to "evidence" of a bullet that really did "range downward" into JFK's chest (which is what you say you actually believe DID happen--i.e., a bullet really did go down into JFK's chest and was then dug out of him later by covert plotters)? Particularly the 1998 testimony of Dr. Perry when he said (after having 35 years to reflect back on his sum total of knowledge that he had garnered about JFK's wounds):

"As it turned out, the chest tubes were not necessary. There was no injury to the chest cavity."

Some people saw Lyndon Johnson holding his own arm as he walked into Parkland Hospital on November 22nd, and subsequently the rumor began to spread rapidly that LBJ, too, had been the victim of an assassin's bullet that day. So would you now (years later) try and utilize those early false rumors and reports as "evidence" that LBJ really was shot?


BEN HOLMES SAID:

The HSCA lied about the medical evidence largely in response to Lifton.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

And just what "lies" did the HSCA tell the world, Ben?

Cites and links please. Not just your half-baked accusations that "lies" were being told.


BEN HOLMES SAID:

They lied about the medical testimony. Full details can be found here.

Simply skip to the section titled: HSCA Refutes Dallas Doctors on JFK’s Head Wound.

You'll find it right under the McClelland drawing of the BOH wound.

And allow me to predict right here and now - you'll either refuse to defend the HSCA's lies, you'll CERTAINLY refuse to state that they ARE lies, and you'll run like a squawking chicken from addressing this issue.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

So let me get this straight, Ben....

According to you and other conspiracy fanatics, the HSCA decided to "LIE" about the medical evidence....but then, in their final report, they decided to TELL THE WORLD THAT THEY THINK A CONSPIRACY EXISTED TO KILL THE PRESIDENT.

Is that about the size of the goofy contradictory situation as it exists in your eyes, Ben?

Talk about convoluted.


BEN HOLMES (INCREDIBLY!) SAID:

You didn't claim that my ["bullet ranged downward"] statement was false, YOU CLAIMED THAT THERE WAS "NO EVIDENCE" FOR MY STATEMENT.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Ben is a riot, isn't he? He can't figure out that my comment (which I'll repeat in full below) was a teeny-tiny indicator that I might just think his statement about the "bullet ranging downward" was, indeed, a FALSE statement.

Ben, as we can see, is desperately trying to move those goal posts some more.

Here's my quote....

"Please note the multiple lies uttered by Ben Holmes above:

Ben thinks that this statement....

"That bullet ranged downward toward JFK's chest."

...is "SUPPORTED BY THE EVIDENCE" in this case. Of course Ben is lying, because such a desperate theory put forth by Ben is most certainly NOT supported by the "evidence" in this case at all. There is NO evidence that any bullet "ranged downward toward JFK's chest". None. Ben is engaging in nothing but blatant speculation and wishful thinking, and nothing more. (As per usual.)"
-- DVP; January 28, 2017

[End DVP Quote.]

Now, after having reviewed the above comment written by me, can anybody in their right mind actually think that I was NOT asserting that Ben's "ranging downward" comment was a FALSE STATEMENT?

I used such words as:

"Please note the multiple lies..."

"Ben is lying..."

"Such a desperate theory put forth by Ben is most certainly NOT supported by the evidence in this case at all..."


and...

"Ben is engaging in nothing but blatant speculation and wishful thinking, and nothing more."

And yet Ben comes back and says: "You didn't claim that my statement was false."

Yeah, you're right, Ben....I merely called you a liar (twice) in that quote of mine because I must have been of the opinion that your "ranged downward" assertion was the GOSPEL TRUTH, right?

(Oh, my poor weak bladder!)




REPRISE....
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Virtually all of Bugliosi's arguments (when evaluated and weighed AS A UNIT, and not merely isolated individually) make perfect sense to any reasonable person who knows the basic facts of the JFK murder case.


BEN HOLMES SAID:

Nonsense.

If the individual elements are garbage, they don't add up in the aggregate to be something more.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

But the individual elements are not garbage. (Only a rabid conspiracist could possibly even suggest that all of Vince Bugliosi's 53 items of evidence are "garbage".) They are perfectly reasonable items. And they are items that ANY reasonable person would certainly use and consider when trying to determine whether or not the person charged with committing the murder of JFK was actually guilty of that crime or not.

The individual items being considered are then PLACED TOGETHER IN A BUNDLE (instead of being kept isolated from one another, which is what CTers always do), and then the WHOLE SUM TOTAL of those individual elements is weighed to reach a final conclusion.

That's exactly what Vincent Bugliosi does in his "Summary Of Oswald's Guilt" chapter in his book "Reclaiming History", and only a biased conspiracy-giddy person who is bent on exonerating Lee Harvey Oswald would have a desire to start up 53 separate forum threads in order to isolate each of Mr. Bugliosi's 53 pieces of evidence in an effort to try and trash each of those fifty-three items.

It's only by isolating each of those 53 things individually that a conspiracy theorist can have a prayer at pretending Lee Oswald was innocent of killing either John Kennedy or J.D. Tippit.

But when those 53 things are PACKAGED TOGETHER as one unit, Oswald's guilt is undeniable. And there's NOTHING a conspiracy nut like Ben Holmes can do to change that basic fact.


BEN HOLMES SAID:

#13 [on Vince Bugliosi's list of "53 Things Pointing To Oswald's Guilt"] [paraphrased] -- During interrogation, Oswald put himself on the sixth floor at the time of the assassination.

This is a rather outrageous untruth that Bugliosi is making here. It's true that Oswald was possibly one of the last to leave the 6th floor, sometime around 12 noon, where he was working that day - but he was seen by others, such as [Carolyn] Arnold, on the first or second floor after 12 noon.

[...]

Cite the actual evidence that shows that Oswald "slipped up" and placed HIMSELF on the 6th floor AT THE TIME OF THE ASSASSINATION.

You won't be able to do it, no such evidence exists.

Bugliosi simply lied.

[...]

Since Bugliosi is unable to cite actual source evidence that supports his claim, it's based solely on his statement. Bugliosi IS THE ONLY SOURCE FOR HIS CLAIM.

I can therefore refute his statement with MY statement: Bugliosi is lying.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Vincent Bugliosi is most certainly NOT "the only source" for his "slipped up" claim. And Ben has Bugliosi's book, so he's got to know what the TWO sources are for Vince's claim. Plus, I even told Ben what those two sources were in two separate posts at the aaj forum on 12/21/16 and again on 1/21/17.

I'm not saying I agree 100% with Vincent Bugliosi on his claim that Oswald definitely "slipped up" and placed himself on the sixth floor at the precise time of the assassination (see this discussion for more of my thoughts on that particular topic), but Ben is certainly dead wrong when he suggests that Vince had no source at all (other than himself) for the "slipped up" claim. Vince used TWO sources (both leading back to Harry Holmes), which Ben Holmes apparently has just totally ignored.

Ben, of course, will now insist that neither of the 2 sources that Bugliosi utilized for his "slipped up" claim place Oswald on the SIXTH FLOOR AT EXACTLY 12:30 PM ON 11/22/63. Well, Ben could possibly be correct on that point. But when we add in Vince Bugliosi's REASONABLE INFERENCE* that he applies to those two sources, then it definitely does add up to Oswald possibly "slipping up". And that "reasonable inference" is this:

"WHERE WAS OSWALD AT THE TIME THE NEGRO EMPLOYEE INVITED HIM TO LUNCH, AND BEFORE HE DESCENDED TO THE SECOND-FLOOR LUNCHROOM? The sixth floor." -- Vincent Bugliosi; Page 957 of "Reclaiming History" [All emphasis Bugliosi's.]

So we have to ADD UP some things in order to reach the conclusion that Oswald "slipped up" and placed himself on the sixth floor. We have to factor in Harry Holmes' statements about what Oswald said he did right around the time of the assassination, and then we have to ADD TO THAT INFORMATION the other important info that Vince Bugliosi mentions in the quote from page 957 that I just quoted above -- the fact that we KNOW from other testimony (Charles Givens' testimony) that Lee Oswald was most certainly ON THE SIXTH FLOOR just before noon on November 22nd.

When putting those pieces together, instead of doing what conspiracy theorists like Ben Holmes always do (keeping the pieces isolated and apart from one another), we can see how Mr. Bugliosi arrived at his conclusion that "Oswald slipped up and placed himself on the sixth floor at the time of the assassination" (another quote from page 957 of Vince's book).

* Footnote -- When I said to add in Bugliosi's "reasonable inference" above, I could have also said "add in an additional FACT". Because it's not really even an "inference" Vince is making there. He's just adding in ANOTHER FACT (Charles Givens' testimony), which tells us that Lee Oswald was, indeed, on the sixth floor at the time he asked Givens to send an elevator back upstairs.

So it's really a matter of adding an additional FACT to Harry Holmes' statements about what Lee Harvey Oswald said. And then inferring WHERE Oswald was when Oswald said what he said in the presence of Postal Inspector Harry D. Holmes.


BEN HOLMES SAID:

Why are you desperately trying to imply that this [Charles Givens' testimony] supports Bugliosi's claim that Oswald said he was on the 6th floor at the time of the assassination???


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

As I said before, you have to ADD THINGS UP, Holmes. You never ever do any "adding up". You like to isolate and keep things separate. The "isolation" trick, of course, is the only conceivable way that you (or any rabid conspiracy theorist) can possibly even begin to justify your claim that LHO is innocent.

And because of this penchant for separating and isolating everything related to Lee Harvey Oswald, you are therefore not qualified to evaluate any of the evidence associated with JFK's murder. You are a total disgrace, in fact, when it comes to piecing together relevant evidence and testimony.

Such as....

You know perfectly well what I was talking about in my previous posts regarding Bugliosi PUTTING TOGETHER Harry Holmes' statements and Charles Givens' testimony, but you're too deeply invested in your silly "Oswald Is Innocent" policy to reasonably evaluate the sum total of all the evidence.

But as I also said, I'm not entirely convinced by Bugliosi's 13th item on his "53 Items" list. I think Vince might be inferring too much when he said Oswald "slipped up". But I do think it's quite POSSIBLE that Mr. Bugliosi was, indeed, correct too. I'm perched on the fence about that particular item.

However, I do know that Ben Holmes is wrong when he said that there's no evidence AT ALL to support Bugliosi's Item #13, as I clearly have demonstrated in my previous posts in this discussion.

But no matter how many times Ben Holmes is reminded that he needs to ADD THINGS TOGETHER, he'll continue to keep every piece of evidence isolated from all the other things that ADD UP to Oswald's blatantly obvious guilt.

As they say, you can lead a horse to water, but....well, you know....


BEN HOLMES SAID:

Nope.

You can have all the fake trees you want, they'll never add up to a forest of real trees.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

So, Ben, are you willing to go out on your shaky limb in that vast forest of "fake trees" and say right here and now that you think that EVERY PIECE OF EVIDENCE THAT POINTS TO THE GUILT OF LEE HARVEY OSWALD IS A "FAKE" PIECE OF EVIDENCE?

Please confirm your belief that NONE of the evidence in the JFK and Tippit murder cases is real or genuine or legitimate, Ben. Please. I want you to say it "on the air" here at an open forum, just for the record (and for the benefit of my funny bone too, of course).

Thank you.

[Ben never answered me. I knew he wouldn't.]


BEN HOLMES SAID:

As I've demonstrated, none of Bugliosi's bits of evidence mean very much at all, and you've run from them like the yellow coward you are.

The fact that you cannot defend Bugliosi shows that you know full well just where the truth lies.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

You should try collecting football cards or joining the chess club instead of embarrassing yourself with this JFK thing you're doing day after day, Ben. You have no capacity for properly assembling evidence whatsoever.

Oswald did a whole bunch of odd and unusual things on both Nov. 21 and 22, which, when strung together, add up to his guilt without question. And yet that super sleuth named Ben Holmes can't admit that even ONE of those things was odd or unusual at all. Can you, Ben?

Let's try this one on for size (and then we'll watch Ben bob and weave all over the ring)....

How about Lee Oswald's behavior as he was spotted by shoe store manager Johnny Brewer shortly after Officer Tippit was killed? Do Oswald's actions in the lobby of Brewer's shoe store signal anything "unusual" or "odd" to you, Ben?

It will be interesting to see how Ben turns Oswald's "scared" and "funny" behavior (per the testimony of Johnny Brewer) into the actions of a snow-white innocent "patsy".

Ben could, of course, resort to calling Johnny Calvin Brewer a big fat liar. Will he choose that road? Let's see.


BEN HOLMES SAID:

Your ad hominem attack simply demonstrates that you know you've lost. If you were capable of defending Bugliosi, you would.

But you can't.

So you simply insult me instead of actually addressing the evidence and logical argument I provide.

And each and every time you evade the points raised, and merely insult me, you prove to any thinking man that you've understood that you lost.

[...]

As I've demonstrated, [Oswald] did quite ordinary things... and Bugliosi simply presumed his guilt, then used everything he could think of to support that "guilt."

When you can explain how reading a newspaper, or not reading a newspaper, is evidence of guilt in a murder case, then you might be on to something.

Until you do, you're simply a dishonest coward.

[...]

It's up to YOU to prove that Bugliosi & the Warren Commission aren't liars.

[...]

Why not cite the cross-examination of Johnny Brewer? .... His cross-examination will show the truth, won't it?

And until you cite the cross-examination, you'll have to get back to actually defending Bugliosi from my refutations...

Or run like the coward you are...

Your choice!


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Yeah, that's what I thought. Ben Holmes is so buried in his silly "Oswald Was Innocent" dung that he can't even admit that Oswald's actions while he stood in front of Brewer's shoe store were odd or suspicious. Ben is as predictable as a rainstorm after a car wash.


IN ANOTHER DISCUSSION, BEN HOLMES SAID:

The ballistics tests performed for the Warren Commission show that no bullet could have struck Connally's wrist, and come out looking like CE399.


BUD SAID:

Did this testing consist of shooting bullets through JFK first?


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

And not only didn't the Warren Commission's "wrist" test bullet [CE856] NOT
go through a mock JFK body first, it also didn't go through a "mock Connally torso" either! So that bullet most certainly cannot be used by Ben Holmes or by Dr. Cyril Wecht or by anybody else to support this false statement uttered earlier by Mr. Holmes:

"The ballistics tests performed for the Warren Commission show that no bullet could have struck Connally's wrist, and come out looking like CE399." -- Ben Holmes

The above quote is just a flat-out lie, and Holmes surely has to know it.


IN YET ANOTHER DISCUSSION, BEN HOLMES SAID:

David Von Pein asks a simple question....

"How did the Klein's "Pay To The Order" stamp get on the back of the Hidell money order if that money order was never handled by anyone at Klein's Sporting Goods in Chicago?" -- DVP

It didn't NEED to be handled by anyone at Klein's.

It WAS PROVABLY handled by the FBI.

The same FBI that sent three agents to Klein's on the evening of 11/22/63. This was roughly 24 hours BEFORE the money order was allegedly found.

Do I have to explain this in any more detail?

Can David Von Pein actually ask a question that cannot be answered CREDIBLY by a knowledgeable critic?

Can David Von Pein PUBLICLY ADMIT that there's an easy, credible answer to his challenge?


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

But you see, Ben, you have a different way of approaching and evaluating evidence in the JFK case than I have. You and many other conspiracy theorists approach ALL of the evidence in this entire case with a jaundiced eye and a feeling that every piece of evidence is probably fake or manipulated by somebody (the FBI or whoever).

I, on the other hand, knowing that each and every piece of physical evidence in this case FITS LEE HARVEY OSWALD'S GUILT LIKE A WELL-TAILORED GLOVE don't feel the need to put on my "Jaundiced" and "It Must Be Fake" hats every time I discuss a piece of evidence -- like Oswald's money order, for example. That particular piece of evidence perfectly blends in with all the other pieces of physical evidence in the JFK and Tippit murder investigations. And that simple fact alone, IMO, makes the money order much more likely to be a genuine and "real" (i.e., non-faked) piece of evidence in this case.

1.) That U.S. Postal Money Order has got LEE OSWALD'S writing on it (as indicated by the testimony of multiple handwriting experts).

2.) That money order was made out for the exact amount of money ($21.45) that we find on Waldman Exhibit No. 7, which is the Klein's internal invoice for the sale of a rifle to "A. Hidell".

3.) "A. Hidell" was a known alias used by LEE OSWALD.

4.) The "C2766" rifle was shipped to "P.O. Box 2915 in Dallas, Texas", the same exact post office box we know was rented and used in 1963 by LEE OSWALD.

5.) The Waldman #7 internal invoice has the notation "M.O." on it, indicating the person who mailed in that rifle order to Klein's paid for it with a money order.

6.) The money order has a "Pay To The Order Of" ink stamp on the back side of it, with the words "Klein's Sporting Goods, Inc." included within that stamped marking, indicating that Klein's Sporting Goods definitely DID have that money order in their possession, resulting in it being deposited into their First National Bank account in Chicago.

7.) And finally, that money order has a "File Locator Number" stamped on the front of it in the upper left corner, which is a number that is stamped on PAID checks and money orders only AFTER they have been received by the Federal Reserve Bank. That Locator Number is the absolute proof, in my view, that indicates that the CE788 money order did go through the proper banking and processing channels prior to ending up in the place where we would expect an ordinary (i.e., non-faked) U.S. Postal Money Order to end up --- in a building in Alexandria, Virginia (7 miles outside Washington, D.C.) where many such federal documents are normally stored for a period of time after they have been cashed and processed.

Now, Ben Holmes and other conspiracists apparently want to believe that all of the various things I just discussed above are phony or fraudulent or suspicious in some manner. Well, they can believe that if they want to, but don't expect me to travel down that rocky road, because I'm never going to.

Much more on "The Money Order" debate here:




BEN HOLMES SAID ALL THIS UNBELIEVABLE CRAP.


BUD SAID:

If this is really your approach, I can only say you [Ben Holmes] suck at every aspect you just outlined.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Boy, you're sure right about that, Bud. In spades!

Ben and other CTers will take a CONCLUSIVE FACT--such as Oswald positively buying and possessing the C2766 rifle--and totally mangle and misrepresent the evidence associated with that conclusive fact to the point where it's utterly laughable and comical. The way CTers are now ignoring the File Locator Number and pretending that that number was faked on the money order too is a prime example of CTers in complete denial.

A while ago, I asked some of the conspiracy clowns at The Education Forum this question (and maybe Ben would like to answer it as well):

"At what point do the LEGITIMATE LOOKING THINGS on the [money order] make you want to stop pretending everything's been put there by conspirators?" -- DVP; Circa 2015

Joseph Ball of the Warren Commission, during a debate in 1964 against Mark Lane, summed up the situation regarding Oswald's ownership of the C2766 rifle very well when he said this to Lane:

"I've never heard such a major distortion of what is actually a conclusive fact." -- Joseph A. Ball; 12/4/64

But it seems as though hard, documented "facts" mean very little to CTers. Like that pesky File Locator Number on the money order. When something like that crops up for the first time (as the FLN did when Lance Payette discovered it in 2015), the conspiracists will just move their goal posts and simply claim: Well, Dave, a File Locator Number can be faked too!

That leads me back (yet again) to the question I posed above.


BEN HOLMES SAID:

If YOU wanted to fake a money order - would you do so by trying to do the best you could to duplicate a real one?

Or would you intentionally foul it up?

You won't answer, because an HONEST answer demolishes your faith asserted above.

Forgeries are not intended to be discovered.

This is why virtually no original paperwork still exists that tied "Oswald" to the "rifle".

It's difficult indeed to forge something so well that it cannot be judged for what it is with modern science... let alone whatever science will figure out in the future.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

So, let me understand your position, Ben....

You think the FBI stole a rubber stamp off of William Waldman's (or somebody's) desk at Klein's in Chicago and it was the FBI who stamped the CE788 money order? Is that what you want me to believe instead of simply believing that the "Pay To The Order" stamp got there in March 1963 by way of a Klein's employee doing his job after receiving LHO's money order in the mail?

Please provide some PROOF (even a HALF-proof) that the FBI stamped that M.O. with that rubber stamp instead of a Klein's employee. I want to see what PROOF you have to offer in this regard. Okay, Ben? Thank you.


BEN HOLMES SAID:

Either they [the FBI] used one of Klein's stamps, or they simply made one.

This explains why most of the original paperwork disappeared once the FBI got their hands on it. (Something you've still not addressed.)

Please provide some *PROOF* (even a HALF-proof) that the Klein employee stamped that M.O. with that rubber stamp instead of the FBI.

I want to see what PROOF you have to offer in this regard. Okay, David? Thank you.

(But of course, I shouldn't be thanking you - BECAUSE YOU'LL NEVER EVEN *TRY* TO PRODUCE SUCH PROOF.)


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Just as I thought, Ben. You have absolutely no proof whatsoever of the fakery you allege exists in this case. All you've got are empty claims and a lot of hot air (as usual).

And you must have been half crocked when you said this:

"Please provide some *PROOF* (even a HALF-proof) that the Klein employee stamped that M.O. with that rubber stamp instead of the FBI."

Hilarious stuff there, Ben. Only a rabid CTer in the "Everything's Fake" club could possibly make such a ludicrous statement. The fact that there is a Klein's inked stamp on the back of the CE788 money order in the first place is, all by itself, at least the "HALF-proof" (if not more than "half") that indicates it was placed there in the course of the normal business practices engaged in by someone employed by Klein's Sporting Goods, Inc. of Chicago, Illinois. That's the most logical explanation to begin with, of course, so therefore it's also THE MOST LIKELY TO BE TRUE explanation as well.

To suggest that it's JUST AS LIKELY as not that the FBI stamped the money order (or even more likely that the FBI stamped it, as Ben Holmes believes) is outrageous and irrational thinking. And such a wholly unproven and unfounded claim against the Federal Bureau of Investigation merely demonstrates, yet again, the degree of desperation exhibited by CTers like Ben who are always anxious to pretend that certain pieces of evidence connected to the JFK case are fraudulent and untrustworthy. Such overzealous thinking regarding alleged fakery and fraud in the Kennedy murder case can more accurately be labelled with the following word --- paranoia. Because, let's face it, that's precisely what it is.

And it continues to amaze me (to some degree) that many conspiracy theorists can continue to argue (with a straight face) that Lee Harvey Oswald never owned or possessed EITHER ONE of the murder weapons that Oswald ended up using to kill President Kennedy and police officer J.D. Tippit, even though we know for an absolute fact that representatives from BOTH of the mail-order companies involved in the two Oswald gun transactions (William Waldman of Klein's Sporting Goods in Chicago and Heinz Michaelis of Seaport Traders in Los Angeles) verified via their testimony that their companies each shipped a gun to the post office box in Dallas that we know was being rented in 1963 by Lee Harvey Oswald.

The fact that both Klein's and Seaport Traders each mailed guns to Oswald's P.O. box in March of '63 is not even a disputable or debatable point. It's a proven, undeniable fact that each of those companies DID mail those guns to P.O. Box No. 2915 in Dallas, Texas. And P.O. Box 2915 was, without a doubt, Lee Oswald's post office box.

How can any CTer continue to dispute that fact about the two guns being mailed by separate companies to Oswald's post office box? Do the CTers want to now claim that both William Waldman and Heinz Michaelis were liars and were part of some kind of plot to fake all of their paperwork in order to frame Mr. Oswald? It's absurd.


BEN HOLMES SAID:

MY assertion is actually corroborated in many different ways. Even the one corroboration - the fact that the original paperwork has disappeared,

[...]

The fact that it's so reasonable that Klein's did it, and so "ludicrous" that anyone else did, simply shows that you actually DO realize how bad your position is.


BUD SAID:

What does this corroborate? If the paperwork is missing, you need to establish the reason behind it. You think offering an explanation you are satisfied with is meaningful. It isn't.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

I'm confused about what "paperwork" Ben thinks has "disappeared" at the hands of the evil FBI. As I understand Klein's policy, they always destroy the "original" items they receive from a customer in the mail (e.g., the order form and the envelope) after Klein's photographs those items on microfilm, which was done in this case with Oswald's order form and envelope (CE773).

So Ben can't be perplexed about why the "originals" aren't available for those items---it's because we know that the normal policy of Klein's Sporting Goods is to get rid of such paperwork immediately after receiving a customer's order (obviously in order to save space).

And the same thing apparently applies to Waldman Exhibit No. 7 too (the internal Klein's invoice for Oswald's rifle order). That form that exists today is a copy produced from Klein's microfilm reader for the Warren Commission. William Waldman confirmed that fact in his WC testimony (at 7 H 366):

DAVID BELIN -- "Now, I'm going to hand you what has been marked as Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7 and ask you to state if you know what this is."

BILL WALDMAN -- "This is a copy made from our microfilm reader-printer of Dallas, Tex. I want to clarify that this is not the order, itself, received from Mr. Hidell, but it's a form created by us internally from an order received from Mr. Hidell on a small coupon taken from an advertisement of ours in a magazine."

MR. BELIN -- "This Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7 is a print from the microfilm negative which we just viewed upstairs; is that correct?"

MR. WALDMAN -- "That's correct."


Therefore, once again, this likely means that the "original" piece of paper for Waldman #7 evidently was never available for the Warren Commission or the FBI to view and examine because the invoice was placed on microfilm after it was originally generated by Klein's in March of '63. So why would Ben even expect any "original" to exist when it comes to Waldman #7 (or the other items mentioned above)?

As far as the "original" microfilm records are concerned, I'm guessing those items were returned to Klein's after the Warren Commission and/or FBI created the photographs of the items they needed for their exhibits in this case.

Why wouldn't that have been the case here? Seems logical to me to do that, since those microfilm strips contained a lot more orders on them than just the "Hidell/Oswald" order information. So, very likely, the microfilm records were simply given back to Klein's after they had served their purpose to the U.S. Government in this case.


BEN HOLMES SAID:

You're a liar, David. You know quite well that I'm not speaking of one or two pieces of paper.

[...]

Why don't you simply produce the original microfilm from Klein's?

But you can't - IT WENT MISSING WHILE IN THE HANDS OF THE FBI.

[...]

You're a liar, David. Speculation isn't evidence...

Speculation cannot replace the evidence either... you either produce paperwork from the FBI showing that they returned the missing microfilm - OR TELL THE TRUTH MINUS YOUR SPECULATION.

The microfilm is missing... PERIOD.

It went missing WHILE IT WAS IN THE HANDS OF THE FBI.

It was an ABSOLUTELY CRITICAL bit of evidence.

Those are FACTS.

You lose!

[...]

There would be paperwork generated *for* the government showing that they'd returned the microfilm.

No such paperwork has ever been discovered...

You clearly know this... it's clear that you're aware that the microfilm simply disappeared, yet you're too dishonest to simply state the facts.

You have to speculate.

Now tell us David - WHAT ORIGINAL PAPERWORK EXISTS THAT HAS TIED OSWALD TO THE RIFLE?

WHY HAS SO MUCH PAPERWORK IN THIS CASE DISAPPEARED WHILE IN THE HANDS OF THE FBI?

As John Armstrong has noted, and NEVER BEEN REFUTED:

"All original records, the original microfilm, and the original money order used to pay for the rifle, disappeared while in FBI custody."

There's no reason that you can offer for this fact.

THERE'S NO *CREDIBLE* REASON THAT YOU CAN OFFER FOR THIS FACT!


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

I have no idea why John Armstrong would make this claim:

"The original money order...disappeared while in FBI custody."

Is Armstrong trying to imply that the original money order "disappeared" way back in the 1960s "while in FBI custody"? Or does he think it "disappeared" many years after the Warren Commission went out of business? ~shrug~

Anyway, the original money order (CE788) most certainly DID exist in its "original" form as recently as 1978 when it was examined by various questioned documents experts for the House Select Committee on Assassinations, which, of course, was some 14 years after the WC had also examined the original money order. Here's the HSCA testimony pertaining to that topic provided by handwriting expert Joseph McNally [at 4 HSCA 355]....

MR. KLEIN -- "Did the panel reach a conclusion with respect to those documents?"

JOSEPH McNALLY -- "They did."

MR. KLEIN -- "What was that conclusion?"

MR. McNALLY -- "That JFK exhibit F-504 and F-509 were written by the same person, again with the caveat. JFK exhibit F-504 is a photo reproduction of a microfilm."

MR. KLEIN -- "The document, which is marked F-509, the money order, is an original document; is it not?"

MR. McNALLY -- "It was; yes."

MR. KLEIN -- "And your conclusion is they were written by the same person who wrote the other documents?"

MR. McNALLY -- "That is right."



BEN HOLMES SAID:

You're lying again, David.

Anyone who has the resources can look up HSCA 8, pg. 234, 239 - where it's EXPLICITLY STATED that the money order was a "Xerox copy".

EXPLAIN THIS - OR RUN AWAY AGAIN LIKE THE COWARD YOU ARE!!!


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

But that's not what McNally told the HSCA "explicitly" at 4 HSCA 355, is it Ben?


BEN HOLMES SAID:

It's *YOUR* problem to explain the obvious contradiction - not mine. Someone was clearly lying. Or perhaps no-one bothered to tell McNally that he was looking at a Xerox.

[...]

You believe the original still exists - IT'S UP TO *YOU* TO PROVE IT.

Run David... RUN!!!


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

The handwriting expert HIMSELF (McNally) said he examined the original M.O. in 1978. That's part of his testimony. Sure, there's a contradiction elsewhere in the records. But contradictions happen a lot in real life, don't they? It doesn't mean McNally DIDN'T examine the original. His own testimony trumps the contradiction, IMO. (YMMV.)

Plus, since there is a contradiction in the record, why is it up to only ME to reconcile it? Why don't YOU (i.e., the CTers) have to do any reconciling of the contradiction to prove that you're on the correct side of the issue?


BEN HOLMES SAID:

On what basis?

TELL ME WHY A WITNESS WHO CONTRADICTS THE HSCA IS MORE CREDIBLE THAN THE HSCA.

Be careful with your answer, because I'm going to use it to examine what other witnesses said.

Your inability to prove that the original money order still exists is quite damning, isn't it?


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Well, just in a general sense, I would think that a handwriting "expert" would know whether he was looking at an original item or a Xerox photocopy. That just seems pretty basic and routine for his line of work. And McNally seemed pretty sure he examined the original document.

Plus, the HSCA questioner (Kenneth Klein) certainly seemed to think that the M.O. was an "original" document, otherwise he would never have asked McNally this question in this manner....

MR. KLEIN -- "The document, which is marked F-509, the money order, is an original document; is it not?"

So, were Klein AND the expert examiner (McNally) BOTH duped into thinking a Xerox copy was really an original document?

CLICK HERE to read more about the "Original vs. Xerox" contradiction regarding the money order.


REPLAY....
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Waldman Exhibit No. 7...is a copy produced from Klein's microfilm reader for the Warren Commission.


BEN HOLMES SAID:

Produced by WHOM?

No, it was *NOT* produced at Klein's, as you rather desperately try to imply.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

You're wrong, Ben. I suggest you look at Commission Document No. 75 (Page 667), which is an FBI FD-302 report filed by Chicago Secret Service Special Agent Robert J. Dolan on November 23, 1963, in which he wrote these words:

"William J. Waldman...made available from a safe in his control one reel of microfilm contained in a cardboard box bearing the following identifying information:

Filmfill number 83
269688-270596
General Files

This microfilm contains photographs of numerous business documents including one Klein's Sporting Goods "ORDER BLANK" bearing a stamped date of March 13, 1963, on transaction number 270502 showing the purchase of one Italian carbine, 6.5 with a four power scope, control number VC 836, and serial number C 2766 which was shipped to the purchaser on March 20, 1963.


[...]

Mr. Waldman was furnished a receipt for the above identified microfilm, which receipt was dated November 23, 1963, at Chicago, Illinois. The described cardboard container containing the microfilm reel was sealed in the presence of Mr. Waldman, dated, and initialed. Mr. Waldman also at this time affixed his initials thereon."
-- CD75 (p.667)

Also see Commission Document No. 7 (Pages 187-188), which is another 11/23/63 FBI report, saying this:

"William J. Waldman...made available for review records of his firm regarding the purchase, sale, and inventory control of merchandise handled by that concern.

[Next page...]

Upon location of these records, described reel of microfilm was placed by Mr. Waldman in a sealed envelope in a safe in his control. He advised that same would be maintained in his control only as long as desired."

-- CD7; Page 187 and Page 188

Do you still want to maintain that Waldman Exhibit No. 7 "was *NOT* produced at Klein's", Ben?

Of course, since Ben doesn't trust anything written in an official FBI FD-302 report because he distrusts the FBI so much, all he now has to do is claim that SA Dolan of the Chicago FBI office just MADE UP all the information we find in those FBI reports. Right, Ben?

David Von Pein
January 22-24, 2017
January 25, 2017
January 28, 2017
January 28, 2017
January 29-31, 2017
February 1, 2017
February 3, 2017
February 11, 2017
February 14, 2017
February 16-17, 2017






JFK ASSASSINATION ARGUMENTS
(PART 1226)


MICHAEL WALTON SAID:

If people opened up their eyes, they would see that the Z film was the single biggest case proving conspiracy. The shot timing alone, where Kennedy reacts to a throat shot, then a back shot, and Connally not reacting until seconds later, demolishes the SBT. Then of course JBC himself stuck with his statement until the day he died that he was NOT hit with the same bullet that hit JFK. It's why the government suppressed the film until '75.

But no - the crazies have just got to think it's more - the painted-in frames and all of the other ridiculous nonsense.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

It would appear by the above wholly inaccurate statement ["Connally not reacting until seconds later"] that you, Michael, have never bothered to properly examine Zapruder frames 224 through 230. John Connally does plenty of "reacting" prior to the "seconds later" interpretation you falsely place on the event (as I demonstrate quite clearly at the webpage linked below)....




REPLAY....
MICHAEL WALTON SAID:

JBC...stuck with his statement until the day he died that he was NOT hit with the same bullet that hit JFK.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

But Governor Connally, in 1967, DID concede that the Single-Bullet Theory was possible. But, naturally, no conspiracy theorist on Planet Earth would ever want to post this video of Connally saying the SBT is "possible":




JAMES DiEUGENIO SAID:

John Connally was one of the best and most adamant witnesses against the fraud of the Warren Report. When asked if he thought Oswald fired the rifle that killed Kennedy, this was his reply:

"Absolutely not. I do not, for one second, believe the conclusions of the Warren Commission." (Into the Nightmare, by Joe McBride, p.418)

Does it get any better than that?


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Let's see what John Connally was saying in 1966....


JOHN B. CONNALLY (NOV. 23, 1966) -- "I want to make it very clear, however, that simply because I disagree with the Warren Commission on this one detail [the SBT] does not mean that I disagree with the substance of their overall findings. I think the Commission did an outstanding job under very difficult circumstances."

REPORTER -- "Are you satisfied beyond any shadow of a doubt that there was one and only one assassin?"

JOHN CONNALLY -- "I have no reason to question it whatsoever. I'm satisfied beyond any doubt that there was only one. .... We should turn our attention to doing a little research on, and evaluation of, the credentials of the self-appointed experts, who, with no evidence, no new facts, nevertheless use distortion, inference, innuendo, in order to cast doubts and create confusion."


Hear Connally say the above words in the video below:




More John Connally interviews and statements:




David Von Pein
January 22-23, 2017


================================


CHRIS SAID:

There is complete incontrovertible proof that the SBT doesn't exist. That proof occurred when the prosectors began to examine the body after the X-ray technician saw a bullet fall from the back of JFK.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Boy, what a crock of crap!

"Saw a bullet fall from the back of JFK"? And yet not a single one of the autopsy surgeons noticed this or put it in their report or told the Warren Commission about it? Yeah, right. You must be kidding. (Although I know you're dead serious, incredibly.)


CHRIS SAID:

The bullet that hit in the upper back [of JFK] penetrated only an inch or so, and did NOT go past that point. There was NO tearing or puncture past the pleura, the covering of the lungs.

So the bullet hit and didn't really penetrate, and fell out, then they found that the bullet had NOT gone past the pleura, which is only an inch into the body.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Both the pleural cavity and the right lung were bruised by the passage of
the bullet through the body. (WCR, p.542)

You think a bullet that just stopped dead in JFK's body, without actually striking any vital structures, would have caused the bruising seen in Kennedy's upper body (pleura and lung)?

And what about the shirt fibers which were pointing outward at the front of JFK's shirt? Did somebody deliberately turn the fibers from INWARD to OUTWARD in order to fool everybody and perpetuate a cover-up?

And please tell us the likelihood of TWO separate bullets entering John Kennedy's upper body (hitting only soft tissue remember!) and having both of those bullets failing to exit the body --- and THEN having BOTH of those bullets falling out of JFK's body and getting lost. That's fantasy talk there.

Time to get real and face the truth, Chris. The SBT wins in every conceivable way. In fact, it's not even a close call.

David Von Pein
January 16, 2017


================================


BUD SAID:

This statement by Ben [Holmes] remains a lie...

"The Zapruder film does NOT show that JFK and JBC were hit by the same bullet. It quite clearly shows Connally reacting several seconds LATER than JFK."

I expect everyone reading that that knows anything about the case recognizes that this is just untrue.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Correct, Bud. This part of Ben's statement is not only untrue, it's laughably untrue (for anybody who has at least one eyeball to see through):

"The Zapruder film...quite clearly shows Connally reacting several seconds LATER than JFK."

I have yet to figure out WHY the conspiracy nuts just simply REFUSE to acknowledge all of the "reacting" that Governor John B. Connally is exhibiting between Zapruder frames 224 and circa 230 (take a look at the clips here to see just how absurd Ben Holmes' statement truly is).

Now, I know the CT clowns can easily see the same "reactions" I'm seeing in the Z-Film, but they just will not acknowledge those reactions. Bizarre CTer behavior. But, I guess such denial is to be expected by now from the hardline anti-SBTers.


BEN HOLMES SAID:

Tell us David...

1. Did the Warren Commission argue for a "delayed reaction" on the part of Connally.

2. Did believers for many years follow suit, and do the same?


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

1. Oh, sure. The "delayed reaction" thing has been argued by many people, including the Warren Commission. But the WC wasn't exactly sure WHEN Kennedy and Connally were hit. That's why they bracketed the SBT as being somewhere between Z210 and Z225. (You know that, of course.)

Plus, we've got better (digital) ways to examine the individual frames of the film nowadays. These quick toggling methods of viewing the frames were not available to the Warren Commission in 1964, which made it much more difficult to examine the film and hunt for hints of any "reactions" on the part of JFK or Governor Connally.

2. Sure they have. Including Vincent Bugliosi in his book....

"Since we know people can react to being struck by a bullet literally hundreds of seconds after the fact, then certainly either Kennedy or Connally could have reacted a second or so after being shot." -- Vince Bugliosi; Page 466 of "Reclaiming History"

But! Vince also says this just one page later....

"The essence of what I'm saying is that determining the timing and number of shots (or the validity or invalidity of the single-bullet theory) by only analyzing the Zapruder film is really like an existential discussion about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin (i.e., it's more of an intellectual exercise than anything else). Fortunately, since we have other more reliable evidence, we are not hostage to, nor bound by, whatever results this exercise produces." -- Vince Bugliosi; Page 467 of "RH"

I would guess that some of the people who have in the past argued in favor of a "delayed reaction" on the part of John Connally might very well have changed their minds about that (at least as far as Connally's INVOLUNTARY movements and "reactions" as seen in the Zapruder Film) after they had a chance to watch some of the isolated (repeating) clips from the film which quite clearly indicate that Governor Connally was involuntarily reacting to an external stimulus (i.e., a bullet) just an instant after Zapruder frame #224. I just don't see how such an involuntary reaction by Connally at that point on the film can be denied---or ignored.


BEN HOLMES SAID:

You're now on record as claiming that a major part of the Warren Commission's theory was "laughably untrue".


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Not at all. It was you, not the Warren Commission, who said that Connally didn't react until "several seconds" after JFK. The WC never said any such thing.

The Warren Commission was smart to BRACKET the SBT shot, utilizing a 16-frame (inclusive) timespan that the bullet could have struck both Kennedy and Connally (Z210-Z225). And they got it right too, IMO. I think the bullet struck at Z224, which is right there within that timespan the Warren Commission used. They did a fine job (without feeling any need to fine-tune it down to a single frame). I think that was excellent on their part.

But I'm now having difficulty in locating a specific reference in the Warren Report where they talk about any "delayed reaction" on Governor Connally's part as it relates specifically to the Zapruder Film itself. On Page 112 of the Warren Commission's Final Report, the Commission does talk about a possible "delayed reaction" by Connally, but that reference is not talking about any examination of the Z-Film. Instead, it is referring only to a possible explanation for how the first shot could have struck Connally, but JBC just didn't feel the impact, and therefore experienced a delayed reaction. But this had nothing to do with any analysis of the Zapruder Film.

There might very well be some reference by the WC to a Connally "delayed reaction" as it relates to an analysis of the Zapruder Film somewhere in the Warren Report (or in the testimony of some of the witnesses), but I haven't found it today via a quick search.

Can you find such a reference in the WCR, Ben? If so, please post the link to it. [Note -- Ben never provided a link. However, a little later on, I myself did find some references to JFK's and Connally's "reaction times" in the Warren Commission testimony of FBI agent Lyndal Shaneyfelt (at 5 H 154-158). It's not exactly testimony dealing directly with the topic of "delayed reactions", but it comes pretty close to it.]

In any event, Ben's previous comment about there being "several seconds" between the reactions of JFK and John Connally in the Z-Film remains what it was a few hours ago—absurd and untrue.


BEN HOLMES SAID:

Of course, the elephant in the room is the massive involuntary reaction by Connally seen starting at Z-237.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

But there's an even bigger (and more important) elephant in the same room....and that is when John Connally is seen reacting involuntarily to an external stimulus between Z224 and about Z229.

If Ben was an honest fellow who was capable of reasonably evaluating the things we see in Abraham Zapruder's home movie (which he isn't, of course), he would just come out and admit right now that these involuntary movements on the part of John B. Connally were caused by a bullet that has just passed through his upper torso:







Let's hear Ben's "anti-SBT" excuses for all of that flinching and grimacing and mouth opening and arm raising and lapel flipping and necktie scrunching that we see happening with Governor Connally in those Z-Film clips presented above.


BEN HOLMES SAID:

You are, of course, imagining things.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Yeah, I guess Governor Connally just decided he wanted to flip his right arm in the air at Z226, which just happens to be the same right arm/wrist that is (amazingly) going to be hit by a bullet in another second or so (according to CTers).

Wouldn't you call that a rather extraordinary coincidence, Ben?


BEN HOLMES SAID:

Why is it that you cannot address the obvious and clear reaction [of Governor Connally] starting at Z-237?


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Connally's reactions don't START at Z237. What you're seeing in Z237 is a CONTINUATION of the reactions that started back at Z224-225. And the movements we see at about Z237-238 are more accentuated and more noticeable at that time because many of those movements are becoming VOLUNTARY on Gov. Connally's behalf (vs. just being subtle, involuntary movements).


BEN HOLMES SAID:

Why is it that you can't admit that Connally himself pointed to this [Z230s] section of the extant Zapruder film?

Do you believe you know better than Gov. Connally?


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Oh yes, I do. And that's because I'm pretty sure Governor Connally never had a chance to see the very good repeating Z-Film clips that we all have access to today.

If I could have shown Mr. Connally the Zapruder Film clips presented on my various webpages and websites, I'm fairly certain I could have convinced him that the Single-Bullet Theory is the truth.


BEN HOLMES SAID:

And [you are] remaining absolutely silent on what the Warren Commission clearly accepted... a reaction occurring starting at Z-237.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Sure, around Z237 might have been when the Warren Commission first saw signs of Connally reacting. But, as I said previously, the WC didn't have all the tools we have today for examining the film in a toggling frame-by-frame format. Therefore, yes, they missed seeing the signs of Governor Connally being hit at circa Z224.

But, as I also mentioned previously, the Commission DID end up getting the SBT timing right --- because Z224 does fall within the range of Z-Film frames the Warren Commission utilized for its SBT timespan.


BEN HOLMES SAID:

You're claiming what are CLEARLY involuntary reactions to be voluntary!!!? That's certainly a new lie on your part.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

~sigh~

I said Connally's reactions at circa Z237 were "becoming voluntary". I.E., some of the movements we see are "voluntary" and some of them are still "involuntary" (like the puffed cheeks).

You think Connally turning sharply to his right is an INVOLUNTARY action on JBC's behalf?


BEN HOLMES SAID:

I'm quite sure he [Gov. Connally] was given every opportunity to view the film time and time again.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

You really think John Connally got a chance to see the Z-Film clips in the steady, toggling, repetitive form that I display on my websites? Really? (He died in June of 1993, keep in mind. That was before we had PCs in all our homes.)


BEN HOLMES SAID:

Which side of [John Connally's] wrist did the bullet enter? The palm side? Or the back of the hand side? ....

Be sure to cite if you try to lie about it.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

The Warren Commission and the HSCA had no problem at all with Connally's wrist injury being caused by CE399 after that bullet had exited JFK's throat.

So, should I believe the experts who testified for the WC and HSCA? Or should I place my faith in some guy on the Internet named Ben?

Not a tough call. Sorry, Benji.


BEN HOLMES SAID:

You get caught lying all the time, and I'm sure that cannot be a very pleasant experience.

You're slicker in your lies than "Bud" is, but they're still there.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

I haven't told a single "lie", Ben. And you know it. So why not cut the "You're a liar" crap. It got old years ago.

David Von Pein
January 24-25, 2017


================================


DAVID JOSEPHS SAID ALL THIS.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

I could spend all day debunking all the conspiracy myths presented in that post link above written by Mr. David Josephs. But right now, I'll just deal with the following three items....

"Why doesn't the shot thru the back [in the 2004 documentary "JFK: Beyond The Magic Bullet"] exit the mannequin's throat as opposed to his pectoral muscle?"

Well, for one thing, the bullet entered the JFK mock torso too low. So, naturally, it's going to exit "too low" as well, and it did.

But nobody is ever going to be able to duplicate the SBT shot with 100% pinpoint accuracy. We'd need to dig up both John Kennedy and John Connally in order to do that. But I think the Discovery Channel people in Australia did a pretty good job of simulating the general path of Bullet CE399 in their 2004 documentary program. All CTers disagree (naturally). But there's nothing new about that. CTers probably wouldn't be satisfied if JFK and Connally WERE dug up and used for a re-creation of the SBT.

More here.

--------------------------

"Why does [Gerald] Ford insist on moving the entry to a point where there is no medical evidence offered to corroborate that change?"

Jean Davison came up with a very logical and reasonable explanation for why Gerald Ford performed his on-paper "move":

"I doubt that Ford, for one, knew the exact location of the back/neck wound. I think he recognized that the sentence as written couldn't possibly be right since there's nothing "in the back slightly above the shoulders." By definition, above the shoulders is "neck." Ford tried to correct it and made matters worse. One thing I feel certain of is that there was no rational motive for anyone to "raise" the back wound. Moving it to the neck doesn't support the SBT, no matter what suspicion may tell you. An entry in the neck would destroy the SBT trajectory. .... Imo, it often seems that CTs don't allow for human error or Murphy's law or Hanlon's razor ("Never ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity [or incompetence].")" -- Jean Davison; Dec. 5, 2014

More here.

--------------------------

"The fragments left in JC [John Connally] add up to more lead missing from ce399."

The above statement made by David Josephs is just simply not correct. Here's why.


DAVID JOSEPHS SAID:

The fact of the matter is we are talking about CE399 as having performed some amazing feat when the evidence offered shows it does not exist until Rowley hands it to Todd.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Why on Earth are you claiming the bullet "does not exist until Rowley hands it to Todd"?

The stretcher bullet has a very definite, clear, and distinct chain (with respect to each man in the "chain" being able to confirm that he received a single whole bullet from the previous man in the chain), beginning with Darrell Tomlinson finding the bullet at Parkland Hospital around 1:30 PM CST on 11/22/63.

Tomlinson gives the bullet to O.P. Wright, with Wright then giving it to Secret Service agent Richard Johnsen, who carries it from Dallas to Washington on Air Force One.

SA Johnsen then writes this memo after getting back to the White House on the night of November 22, confirming that he received the bullet he carried to Washington from O.P. Wright at Parkland Hospital.

Johnsen must have then stapled that memo to this envelope, which is the envelope that Johnsen put the bullet into before giving it to Secret Service chief James Rowley. (Note the staple hole in the memo [but not a staple itself], and the metal staples which still seem to be attached to the envelope.)

Per Elmer Todd's writing on the envelope, Rowley then passes the envelope (containing the stretcher bullet) on to Todd of the FBI, with Todd then taking the envelope containing the bullet to the FBI laboratory in Washington and giving it to Robert A. Frazier. Todd and Frazier then both scratch their initials into the nose of the bullet. The documentation for this last part of the bullet's journey and the etching of Todd's and Frazier's initials into the bullet is Elmer Todd's FD-302 report in Commission Document No. 7.

Throughout this process of handing off the bullet from one man to the next on November 22nd, there is no indication that more than just one single bullet is being handled. None of these men (Tomlinson, Wright, Johnsen, Rowley, Todd, and Frazier) ever said, as far as I know, that they had handled two different whole bullets in connection with the JFK case. Which means, if we're to believe some of the conspiracy theorists, that one or more of those men told some lies after the assassination.

I guess you, David Josephs, think the bullet that Tomlinson found on a stretcher at Parkland was not CE399, but instead was a different bullet entirely. Right? Well, if you want to believe that, fine. You're not alone if you believe that, of course. Nearly all Internet conspiracists think there's something fishy about CE399. But since I've been totally convinced of Lee Harvey Oswald's lone guilt for quite a number of years now (based on a whole bunch of evidence, and not just CE399), I have chosen not to travel down the "Bullet Was Planted Or Substituted" road. Call me naive if you so desire. But I choose not to go down the rocky road of evidence tampering.

Related quote....

"Conspiracy theorists will, of course, argue that the "chain" shown above is still extremely weak and that it doesn't constitute a "chain" of custody at all--particularly since the Johnsen typewritten note is not signed with his handwritten signature or initials and is not still physically attached to the envelope that contains Todd's remarks about receiving the bullet from Rowley.

So, yes, maybe this issue about the chain of possession of the bullet will always provide fertile ground for continued debate and argument. It seems quite obvious that it will. No issue in this case seems to ever go unchallenged by conspiracists, even the ones that have been thoroughly debunked by lone-assassin proponents over the years.

But if a person digs into the records deep enough, that person can and will find documentation to support the idea, which is totally foreign to most conspiracy theorists, that Bullet CE399 was the bullet that made its way from Parkland Memorial Hospital in Dallas to the FBI laboratory in Washington on November 22, 1963."
-- DVP; Pages 419-420 of "Beyond Reasonable Doubt: The Warren Report And Lee Harvey Oswald's Guilt And Motive 50 Years On"


DAVID JOSEPHS SAID:

Please notice...how DVP stays away from the 7:30 versus 8:50pm time conflict.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Okay, there's a time conflict. But where do conspiracists want to go with this conflict?

Are CTers saying that the "real" (non-CE399) stretcher bullet was being passed from one person to another at one of those two times (either 7:30 PM or 8:50 PM on 11/22/63, Washington time)? And that the bullet from Lee Oswald's rifle which became "CE399" was transferred from one person to another at the other of the two times in question?

But if the "CE399" bullet was actually a bullet involved in either a 7:30 PM transfer or an 8:50 PM transfer, and if CE399 wasn't really the bullet that Richard Johnsen carried to Washington on Air Force One and was merely used as a "substitute" bullet to replace the "real" bullet that Darrell Tomlinson found on a stretcher (as many conspiracists believe was the case), then how did the FBI (or the Secret Service) manage to get that bullet to Washington by either of those two times?

Oswald's Mannlicher-Carcano C2766 rifle, which we know is the rifle that fired Bullet CE399 since it is the only gun in the world capable of firing that bullet, was still in Dallas at 7:30 EST and 8:50 EST. The gun wasn't taken out of Dallas until about 11:45 PM CST on November 22. So did the Government just happen to have a bullet from Lee Oswald's rifle in their possession several hours before the gun ever departed Dallas, Texas?

Or do conspiracy believers think that two other (non-CE399) whole bullets, which were both somehow involved with the wounding of President Kennedy and Governor Connally, were being handled by various people in Washington, D.C., at 7:30 and 8:50? Which would mean, of course, that somebody would have had to transport those two additional whole bullets from Dallas to Washington on November 22. And then, sometime later, the evil Government deep-sixed both of those non-CE399 bullets and replaced them with only Commission Exhibit No. 399 in order to frame Lee Harvey Oswald as the lone assassin. It's an utterly ridiculous scenario.

But I guess some (or maybe most) CTers must, indeed, believe such unsupportable nonsense about multiple non-CE399 bullets being handled by authorities in Washington on 11/22/63. Otherwise, what's the point of even bringing up the 7:30 vs. 8:50 time discrepancy?

So why don't conspiracy theorists just admit that the "7:30/8:50" time discrepancy was merely an innocent clerical error or mix-up of some kind? Because that is quite obviously what it was.

Related discussion from 2010....

JIM DiEUGENIO SAID:

[Robert] Frazier composed a document entitled "History of Evidence". On the top line he wrote that he received the bullet from [Elmer] Todd at 7:30 PM. And Frazier wrote another document. It was called "Laboratory Work Sheet". This also certifies that he got the bullet from Todd at 7:30. It describes it as "Bullet from Stretcher". .... Todd wrote down the time as 8:50 PM. Question for the Prosecutor: How could Todd have given CE 399 to Frazier before he got it from Rowley?

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

A big problem here with DiEugenio's theory about the stretcher bullet is this: The Mannlicher-Carcano rifle which fired Bullet CE399 was not yet in the possession of the FBI in Washington as of EITHER ONE of the two times noted in the official reports (7:30 PM EST or 8:50 PM EST).

[...]

So, does Jim DiEugenio think the FBI in Washington had possession of Oswald's C2766 Carcano rifle at some time PRIOR to 11:45 PM CST on Friday? Because if they didn't have possession of that gun at an earlier time, then how could Robert Frazier have taken possession (and marked with his initials) a "fake" or "substitute" bullet that was fired BY THE FBI in that exact rifle PRIOR to 11:45 PM on Friday?

Or, as an alternative, I suppose DiEugenio could always say that the FBI's Robert Frazier was a liar too, with Frazier only pretending to receive (and mark) CE399 at a time that was much earlier than when the FBI gained possession of Oswald's rifle.

But if Frazier and the FBI as a whole were liars about the entire CE399 affair -- then why didn't they merely fudge the paperwork to eliminate the time discrepancy regarding the stretcher bullet?

Silly plotters indeed. But Jim DiEugenio is even sillier to believe the cloak-and-dagger nonsense he says he believes concerning the FBI and Warren Commission Exhibit No. 399.

Also See:
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/The Secret Service & CE399

David Von Pein
January 26, 2017